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Buster's Uncle

Getting what needs fixing here fixed

45 posts in this topic

This ain't no slam on anyone; I mean to be helpful, and I'm going to a little trouble to tilt at this windmill yet again.

 

As I just posted on GK's wall, Solver ain't coming back, y'all.  If the members want WPC fixed in any of the various ways it needs, the members are going to have to figure out how to do something about it.  Solver wouldn't get in your way.  He'd be glad.

 

One, person, ONE PERSON willing to energetically attack taking care of tech issues -or nagging someone who can into prompt action- and engage in the natural leadership function (also duty) of a staff position could do a pretty half-butt job of taking care of business and organizing that what needs doing - and punk what I've done at AC2 pretty hard pretty fast pretty easily; there's still more lurkers here and a wider focus and many other advantages to work with.

The overall meta-problem here is that the staff's virtually down to Rob part-time and Nik part(er)-time, and Donald in tech emergencies, maybe.  None wants to actually tell anyone what to do (which is actually one of the best qualifications of a good mod if he'll see it as duty and do it anyway, because gentle management) and there's been no one in charge here for years.

Rob, you could do it, if you'd commit to a half-hour a day of a little bossiness and persuasive organizing and the odd speech to the membership sharing a vison and getting them to do what work the membership can; you're the right personality in the right staff position.  Look at it as you'd personally like a little more life in your online home, and it's also your duty. 

 

Have any of you ever read The Postman or at least seen the movie?  He didn't want to be a leader, to make everyone's problems his own - heavy is, indeed, the head that bears the crown- and is sneaking out of town to shamelessly to dodge the duty forever when he sees an emergency happening across town.  The book articulates this far more clearly and explicitly; he doesn't want to, but thinks "if I don't do it, who will?' and walks back to direct the emergency response.  Reluctant hero and a good man, the Postman; wise enough to desperately not want a thankless job, excellent enough in a Man's character to do it anyway.

 

Forums simply don't work as democracies, and CFC demonstrates amply the folly of a ruling oligarchy/committee absent an active owner.  This place needs a boss taking care of business and leading, else even if you like it this quiet here, inevitable attrition of regulars by random life events is sure to kill it dead dead dead.  -The last live one of new members was NZCamel two years ago, and he's at CFC now.

Nothing Solver has actually said, but the ownership of WPC could basically be had for the asking from the right person -'Poly, too, and Aeson has explicitly said so in public- and --- I'd hate to see this forum I poured so much -deliberate building work- support into for years finally die - but I ain't gonna do it -I already gotta wife I love- and bringing in an outsider to take over is not optimal, but multipally problematic, and it need to be a WPCer.  If Rob's not sold, if Nik's enjoying Astrid too much to commit, I nominate Roth - or somebody raise Kloreep from the dead; good heads on both those shoulders (and they probably ought to have a doctor look at that deformity. ;))

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Thanks, but I have no idea how to run a website.  I'm fine being someone with mod powers, but that's it.

As for fixing things, I'm not sure if it's worth it really.   I certainly don't want to see WPC die since it's been a part of my life for 8 years, but the problem isn't deficient tech or anything, it's the fact that it's supposed to be a Civ site, but Civ5 and Civ6 kind of killed it.  Back in the Civ4 days the forum was active.  There was an ongoing MP democracy game and several PBEMs.  People posted frequently about other games and there was a lot of discussion about a lot of different things.

After Civ5 came out a lot of people left because they don't enjoy the new Civ anymore (Beta comes to mind here).  Or as much.  I like Civ6, but there is no active community here for it.  There ended up being no interest in a democracy game once it came out etc.  PBEMs are chancy at best, and I have reservations about playing MP games because of the war mechanics (which are fine against the AI, but break down when faced with humans who don't want to give anything up in peace deals to anyone else).  Most all of the "Old Guard" left the site.  Some visit occasionally, but that's it.

Honestly the only active forum here, besides OT, is the Paradox forum, and that's primarily because of the efforts of around 5 people.  Even a lot of the people who enjoy Paradox games like Penry, BigDork, and Arnelos don't come here much anymore.

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The site isn't coming back in any significant form.

For one, forums are kind of dead in general. Online communities have changed and have moved to what is in my opinion a much worse model, with Facebook and all, but my own judgments aside, it's a fact that online communities are very different from what they were 10 years ago.

As for WPC, not much of significance has been done around here for maybe 5 years or so. I am nominally the owner of this place, but for me Civ5 was a big blow to my dedication to Civ sites. I think Civ5 was very poor when released, and I know the opinion is shared by many old-timers. I actually enjoy Civ6 though, it's not problem-free of course but I think the game has been fun from day one. In the end, I myself stopped visiting WPC on a daily basis, and haven't done anything at all apart from the forum upgrade for the past 2 years.

I had actually thought about re-starting the site properly for Civ6, but after some brief soul searching, I decided against that. I have largely moved on to doing other things in my free time, and while I can still enjoy a game of Civ for sure, I am not so sure about enjoying running a site. It takes a lot of time and energy, dedication which I no longer have, and frankly it's not always a pleasant experience. A somewhat active forum comes with issues of staff management, policy setting, and conflict management such as members being upset with the moderators, rightly or wrongly. To put it simply, I am not interested in dealing with that anymore.

I now mostly see this place as a forum for some old-timer regulars to talk to one another, and it's not going anywhere for the foreseeable future. While I haven't invested any time into WPC for a while, it also costs me essentially nothing to keep running, so there's no big danger of the forum just vanishing. 

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20 minutes ago, Solver said:

I now mostly see this place as a forum for some old-timer regulars to talk to one another, and it's not going anywhere for the foreseeable future. While I haven't invested any time into WPC for a while, it also costs me essentially nothing to keep running, so there's no big danger of the forum just vanishing. 

Good to hear.  Thanks Solver.  I kind of see it the same way too, as a place for the old-timers mostly  If new people want to join that's great, but there haven't been many who have stuck around.  NZCamel joined when Civ6 came out, but he was the only one I remember, and when Civ6 talk all but disappeared he left too.

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My thoughts are this.

 

We are okay as we are, but it might be better if the site changed focus to a Paradox one.  However, I would not want to see anything like the zoo that the official Paradox forums are.  I get that changing like that is a lot of work and that Solver has better things to do.

 

Civ is dead to a lot of folks right now.  I really have not enjoyed anything past Civ4.  5 is brain dead and the leader animations in 6, ugh.  If there is a skip key, haven't found it.

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I have thoughts - I think about stuff like this all the time.  Stay tuned...

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Sigh.  Rob, Nik, - that took too long to untangle.  Would you mind erasing this line and the two posts above in favor of what follows?  Thanks.

 

These are not bad comments above.  It's true about Facebook eating all forums' lunch -I said so at AC2 yesterday coincidentally- scratching many of the same itches and having taken over the net; the conversation pie -where's Pi-Man?- is automatically smaller for everyone else, (despite being a horrible Big Brother interface where a post is effectively gone forever in a week or month, not worth the pageloads to find).  and Reddit isn't helping, either.  And yes, I was here and doing 5 avatars to pitch in on all the excitement for the community when the community slowly realized it sucked, got bored and wandered off.  Stupid Civ5 sucked all the air out of SMACX in the middle of a demogame, and nobody came back when they realized about 5.

I wandered off for seven months straight myself, for not-5 reasons, though I still think the sad state of WPC when I came back had more to do with the vacuum created by Dale stepping down.  In fact, here's an old AC2 post by me replying yo him that Dale admitted was true - from December 28, 2012, 06:44:39 PM »:

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I have to admit I was part of the problem over there.  That's why I removed myself from any sort of authority over there.  Got to big-headed, overstepped, and became a negative for the site.

The issue they have is the only admin they had who gave a stuff about the site stepped down, and the other two don't have (or don't care to dedicate) the time the site requires.


Hey i'm a big boy.  I can admit I made mistakes.  Hence why I moved on.  :)

Well, I'll tell you straight, sir; I think they're walking dead without you.  I've been saying so behind your back for quite a while now.

Whatever else you did, there was someone there willing to moderate people, usually before things escalated into crisises.  There was someone visibly active and in charge, putting a face on the management.  The frogs don't want/need Old King Log and Old King Log.  You drew a certain kind of trouble, given your history, and made mistakes, given your temperment, but there was someone there, visible, and taking care of business.  Absentee Landlord is not a viable management style.

(Actually on-topic to my Postman thesis, after all - my stump speech abut community-building was already half-formed by the end of 2009.  I learned a LOT more of that stuff right here in three years than everything put together building and running my own place for six years since.  Even went away already knowing most of what I needed to moderate and manage people before I left, more than I've learned since.)

I peed blood trying to make something out of Beyond Earth w/o even minimal -that is, any- support from the nice PR people at 2K, of whom I will say no more.  That was our BIG shot, the new space Civ game.  It wasn't nothin', but the last post by a human in that folder was Mart December 18, 2016, 10:41:15 AM EDT.I didn't rupture my bladder, exactly, over Civ6, but anyone who thinks I didn't try kind ridiculously hard wasn't looking in the 6 folder here at the time - what I got out of THAT is almost entirely the pleasure of encouraging and coaching Nikolai, which part was worth it, and the scoop rivalry was fun, and I DID nag persuade/engineer a link exchange with here and 'Poly, of which I'm sinfully proud.

Everybody's seen one or more of my stump speeches about how all it takes is patience and work w/o needing to even leave this folder -there's some good ones in AC, though- so take all that as read.

So yes; I get the challenges.  (One being that E_T just tried to lure one of my prize newbs over here to talk Stellaris, and it'll probably work; I honorably had to add that it was a good steer - enjoy new WPC member bvanevery, y'all. If you don't run him off for his alt. manners, HE'LL liven up the place. :lol:)  And I spent 2012 mostly suicidality depressed, but stayed on-task and made something that matters form nothing and long odds, taking only most of the GotM team with me, and doing very little aggressive recruiting.  (Everyone here who ever got a head-hunting PM from me speak up, please [quiet, Arnelos!])  Old game that was a flop, started with no content and precious few posts, didn't even have anyone but Kilkakon to talk to at first, (And thus nothing to post about and shutup saying spam, Cowboy!) etc., etc..

Everybody's seen one or more of my stump speeches about how all it takes is patience and work w/o needing to even leave this folder -there's some good ones in AC, though- so take all that as read.

(Actually, the April GotM's already saved on my hard drive, and I have no right spending time here trying to help until I've taken a second minor pass at the intro/setup story and put title/credits on the Frontispiece art.  Brace yourself for Sunday morning -we're skipping fools day for obvious reasons- because, Hey! Darsnan could run a contest HERE, and generate traffic HERE. -And Mart deserves the applause of many downloads and there's a Librarian difficulty-level version for if you're rusty and want an easy, relaxing game...  -But above is all acknowledging the challenges and reminding you of all the activity build activity stuff I've been saying here since two days before WPC went public - Solver has a lower member number than my lucky 13 -some jokes at true- but I venture no one else reading this does.  I've got an intermediate idea that might suit better than someone stepping up as Big Boss, at least until the active membership doubles.  [You've already got a Janitor who stays ahead of the bots, and low need for people moderation.]  Stay tuned.)

 

I MISS THE PREVIEW FUNCTION!

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Because of the way invision treats quotes -awkwardly for the user- Imanna leave this one here in isolation and refer back later when I get to the right spot in my walls-of-Kirk-speech-texts/essays...

From bdanv, late 2011:

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- to have a friendly community you need to let the members do it on their own with as little help from the site as possible. of course, there are rules that must be respected and there is also what is called etiquette. having a consensus on what is acceptable behaviour and what is not, may be sometimes hard to find, but only discussing it in a transparent manner can help us.

 

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I have been asked if I were interested in the site, but I am not. I don't have the technical knowhow, the visions nor the dedication needed. Most importantly, and connected to this, I don't have the time. I have so much stuff in my life already. :) 

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16 minutes ago, Nikolai said:

 I don't have the [..] dedication needed.

To be fair, the amount needed is about zero ;)

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Last night, Solver asked me why I even care so much about how WPC does, and here's a copy/paste of my answer after a pause to think:

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...My blood runs through it...
Seriously.
There was my LIFE for three years.

I should note that it was no part of my intention, but this thread is actually a tip-of-iceberg public manifestation of a running argument my friend Solver and I have been having for nearly five years in private.

Mid-2014, when I saw the OTf here go well north of 48 hours, an entire weekend+, without a post -and it was before the transition to being WePlayOtherGames got under way, so 48hrs+ w/o a single public post on the entire site, and I decided I'd had my revenge, declared victory, and reinstated Solver on my Skype.  He and Nikolai can confirm that I've been sporadically been working hard to support WPC behind the scenes for years, mostly through counsel/advice and encouragement - but putting a lot of time and effort in.

The first public call to remedial membership action I made in that late phase is still on the first page here in Site, I believe, though it got derailed by the loggin bug finally getting fixed after a year and a half - and had been greeted by the sound of crickets until then.

So in my last post save the bdanv quote, I talked about the challenges and asked that all plug in all the basic freshman community/activity-building stuff I've been talking about since here in 2009 as read.  This time, I want to talk about the role leadership plays and why I prefer a BigBoss-stepping-up-and-taking-charge model, before I move on to a weaker alternate suggestion that will serve, if everybody will cooperate.

Here, one of my earliest Kirk Speeches -which became one of my signature pieces, doing that, at AC2- and the first to ever gain really discernable traction for reasons I'll go into after...

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2011 at 1:59 PM, Buster's Uncle said:

Look, I know perfectly well that had any number of other people made the call for healing, there would have been more interest expressed by now - even my friends find me annoying. I was a general in the NerdWarsTM. I'm not the guy to take point on this.

Everything I've talked about needs a grassroots effort. The community needs leadership, but needs consensus more. And I'm not stupid enough to have designs on a leader postition. I've been very happy working with/under bdanv, and vyeh before him, just stepping up and helping. Talking things over. Getting things done. There's a lot that needs doing, always, and somebody has to.

I ask the leaders to step up and not leave foolish me out here cheerleading alone.

More than leadership, we need you. Everyone reading this. Every single one, could should be thinking "Y'know, I think I'll drop [X] an email." And posting about SMAC(X). And maybe volunteering on the mod repository project - take an hour or two browsing wherever AC stuff is and report with links to Darsnan with what you've found.

Explore taking a chance with mediating between mutual friends with an old grudge. Blame me if they get mad at you for trying. Seriously; I put you up to it, and I'll live. Point them at post 18 and blame me.

Lurkers - you're reading because of all the great stuff here, yes? Sign up and get involved. Ask questions. Voice opinions. We take good care of our newbs. You'll find that to be the case at every AC forum I know of. Do it here, and I can teach you how to make your own custom faction art.

Let's get the band back together and do some serious SMAC talk. It'll be great, but we need YOU.

See, I'd been a moderator for about a month, then, Locutus telling me, when I was appointed a site-wide mod, he wanted me working on smilies and avatars (only said that much; I knew what he thought of how many smilies we had - and never got to organizing avatars before it was too late) didn't say I wasn't supposed to moderate humans, but I read between the lines - and Solver confirmed when I said so a couple weeks later.  (I won't digress into telling the Beta story, the first time I moderated a human because [beautiful] Buffy nip-slip pic posted, a thing to be spiked instanter as first staff to see, and I nailed what I said to Beta - and Solver confirms that, too.)  See also my user title no one has ever corrected - Solver made me put "Moderator" in, the rest says same as Rob's excellent-attitude "janitor".

So that quote above was me doing what I'd BEEN doing since late 2009 as a WPC good citizen-soldier working on community issues (my main hobby in life ever since I discovered SMACers are a bunch of engineers lack the aesthetic vocabulary to discuss my creative AC modding) taking on the recruiting of other members to pitch in on recruiting externally, and all the other work comprising 90% of what needs doing on a healthy forum that We Don't Need No Steenking Badges To Do.

-But funny thing that shocked me and had never happened before: there wasn't NO answer, not ONE volunteer, but a long and productive conversation happened involving many, and old-timers, too (I'm sure the badge was the difference, though I wasn't supposed to be working with people management and was speaking as another citizen) and it was then that t_ras and Imagine A Cool Name climbed on the bus and stepped up their participation/posting game.

-As I said to the CFC staff on the 24th (I'm doing my meddling-aunt gig other places, too, but for different reasons, also the same that we're all in it together in our Greater Civ Fan Community, and all do better when the other places are in good order) "leading is intrinsic to the very duties of any people-management position as well as enabled by the intrinsic prestige of the job."  -I discovered the intrinsic prestige of the job right ^up there^ November 2011.

I've learned a great deal more about people management -I'm good at it, despite what I, in advance, and anyone who's never had a look at AC2, thought and/or thinks- over six+ very hard years of persistent work. -And as Solver tells me, I'm not like anyone else in what I bring to it, but I do have practical thoughts about what might work here, weighted for what ought to strike the dozen or so regulars left as feasible.

Hopefully, when I get to composing part three of my (over)extended-suggestion, Solver will not make it take even longer with heckling on Skype distracting me...   Please stay tuned, and thank you for your kind attention.

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Yes, of course, you've been trying for a few years now to do some good here, encouraging activity here, and encouraging me in private. So full credit for that. That does little to change the current situation though - it's the same as I said, the small bunch of regulars we have here are quite happy with how things are, so there's no desire or need to change anything. Your suggestions are coming from a good place and in good tone, but it's also just shouting into the void.

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One thing that I would like to know is this

Why is it that UnOrthOdOx still can not access this site from either his work, home or mobile device?  If he can't access, then whom else who was here before the malware BS and site change also still can't get in??

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I really have no idea what could be preventing access from several devices like that. Google has no malware warnings for WPC. The site now has a trusted SSL certificate, so it works on devices/browsers that only allow HTTPS traffic - WPC gets an A rating on the SSL Labs check. Half a year ago the site was inaccessible to some people for a day because the certificate had expired, but other than that, I really don't know.

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Solver, how many times in the last day+ have I said myself that I'm tilting at yet another g-d windmill? And how many times have I finished the thought by pointing out that I HAVE a few windmills mounted on my trophy wall?

That's RIGHT, it's more times in a little over 24 hours than even I  am pedantic enough to care to scroll back and count. :nod:

THE BIGGEST WINDMILL MOUNTED THERE?  *AC2*.  Don't MAKE me quote you the post I wrote at sisko the day after I left here, bleeding from every emotional orifice, but laying out a cool-headed assessment of the challenges of making that empty skeleton into a live community and laying out a strategy - I SAID it was a long-shot and a helacious amount of patient labor required - and I was actually a tad conservative, it turned out; the community was live in six months, like I'd predicted for a year.  Oh yes; that there windmill IS on my wall. :nod:

You don't understand why I'm still trying - I don't understand why you're arguing about an attempt that leaves you out of having to try.  The power to get WooPCie back to self-sustaining activity levels to lure signups and make up for natural regular attrition -buses and Astrid, God Bless 'er, in short- was ALWAYS in the membership's hands.  Rob making speeches -or a me without my own forum to run and my history of drama here, even- would make it quicker and easier, and work more smoothly, but all's really needed is a community consensus, like I quoted bdanv above earlier.

Solver, it's sounds almost like you don't want a little more life on these boards, almost like you're afraid you'll be tempted to get involved again, god forbid.

;) Just stay outta the way, old man -I believe he's over a decade younger than me, folks- and lets see if I can't point out the need for slightly-healthier community and talk people into believing how little each would need to do pulling together to make sure this is still here next year.

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Hey, AC2 is a very impressive windmill to have dealt with. You know I am impressed by that effort and success. You want to swing at some more windmills? Well, I'm not stopping you, but I am not encouraging that either.

This forum is now owned by the community of the few regulars that hang out here. If these old-timers want to do something, I don't mind. If one of that bunch has some ideas and wants to assume management of the site, I'm open to that in principle. And if everyone's happy as things stand now, then that's how it will remain. My impression is that this community consensus already exists.

No worries about me getting involved again, as astute as the concern is :) As I said above, I had considered re-starting this place a couple of years ago, but that's no longer a concern. Enough has happened in my life that I cannot see myself getting back into this business, and that's probably a good thing for me. It just happens so that I'm now posting this in the middle of the night, but what will happen is that something will come up for me soon to draw my attention away from this conversation, and then I won't even check back for weeks. 

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I'm sure you're right about the consensus - and wanting a kind of stasis is valid - yo, if you like quite l'il WePlayOtherGames, go have yourself a Stellaris demogame. 'cause who needs pr0n when a game's that good?

I get that.  Almost everyone but Nik -who is 16 forever if you ask me- is in or approaching middle-age, and us old guys learn to like peace and quiet.  (Conversations between middle-aged white guys talking about doing yardwork frequently break out at AC2 Rec Commons, and sometimes it's even me talking.)  I get it.

But it's NOT looking towards the future wisely to hope WPC never changes.  Solver, you agreed with me a couple hours ago that death by natural regular attrition IS going to happen if nothing changes.

Well DAMN.  There's content here, if not a bunch of people left.  The day you pull the plug -it IS coming if nothing at all ever changes- is going to be a loss for the entire Greater Civ Fan Forum Community, full stop.  (ANd everyone but the trolls of the Troll Pit will know it.)  I act in self-interest -not just my past devotion and investment in building WPC- in pointing this out to the members who HAVE the power to juice the joint up juust a little and make it self-sustaining for the long-run.

 

Y'all, Solver finally went to bed a half hour ago.  I'm going to bed now myself -I'm 53 and needs mah sleep- but why don't y'all showSolver some love and do yourselves a favor and go wreck up OTf with Tubers and comedy posts... :nod:

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Oops I forgot I have a live forum, so they kept me up this long.  Here's the 2014 speech, on p.2 thanks to the SpammyCast spam, and it got a reply the next day, but never a single one on-topic., which makes me happier about this thread, thanks Roth (and I have nagged Solver to empower you w/ buttons because we agree you're excellent).

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2014 at 4:57 PM, Buster's Uncle said:

First, I want to say that I miss most of you very much, and I was delighted to see Standup do the obvious remedial thing about the recent low ebb of activity Sunday night - post, post, and post some more. Good man, that Standup. I was further delighted to see so many follow his example; posts Monday were up to 45, from around 10 Saturday and for a few weeks before. When I counted total posts onsite late yesterday morning, it was up to 58, and I haven’t counted today because it’s too much work now. :b:

THIS is how you do it. WPC is like delicious, delicious Soylent Green - made out of people. The people can take a stake in owning their online home by stepping up and doing what it takes to make it a good place to hang out. One person can make a difference, as Standup proved. The entire community pulling together and fixing up their home can make an unstoppable powerhouse of activity and vibrant health. The power to make a difference is in YOUR hands. It always was.

Power to the people!

Now, I call upon the staff to speak up in encouragement of this grassroots effort already in progress and succeeding. A community needs leaders, and that’s your job. You can do it. Take the wheel, give respect and encourage respect, and lead by persuasion and make this forum as great as I remember it when I was a green newb spamming up OT five years ago today.

[blinks] Not that spam is the answer, but even crappy activity is better than nothing. jk. ;)

We were able to build Alpha Centauri 2 forums from so much less than WPC still has to work with - higher search engine rankings, more lurkers and years more content here - and a MUCH broader basic appeal, not being centered around a single 15 year-old game. We started with virtually nothing 2 years ago, took few people with us, and have done little aggressive recruiting. Yet today, we have more on-topic activity than here and ‘poly combined, and we’re still growing. Traffic has ebbs and flows, naturally, and ours goes up and down about twice a year - but each peak takes us higher, and each ebb is less. The future looks bright.

I wish I had more people to talk crap in our OT, though.

My point is not to gloat. My point is that building a forum community isn’t the easiest thing in the world, and it doesn’t happen fast, but WPC has what it takes, if only you and you and YOU -I’m talking to you, whoever you are reading this- step up and be persistent. The power is in your hands.

Sign up at the link in my sig if you don’t wanna do the work -sign up anyway if you do- I‘d love to chat you up in our OT, Recreation Commons, even if you don‘t play SMACX. You, too, Bantams.

Solver, check your PMs at CFC - I have some lower-time-requirement ideas about what needs doing here on your end -also inter-site cooperation/mutual support- and I’d like to talk them over.

You guys can do it.

-BU (+1 :lol:)

Yo, Nik - do me a solid and back me up that I was counseling you and encouraging in the runup to civ6 - and that the scoop rivalry was fun.  (Also, it was not for entirely nothing for WPC, although I can't say that for my place...)

NOW I go to bed - if nobody's posted at AC2 in the last ten minutes...

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Yes, you've been constantly PMing me and prodding me for ages. :lol: 

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10 hours ago, Buster's Uncle said:

 thanks Roth (and I have nagged Solver to empower you w/ buttons because we agree you're excellent).

 

Actually I have them already.  Penry made me mod of the Paradox sub-forum last year so I could clean it up and make the AAR tracking thread, but he gave me moderator powers over all forums.  I don't know if it was an accident or if he intended it.

 

As for not wanting things to change...it's not that at all, at least for me.  There just isn't much traffic here anymore, and it's not because of deficient tech or anything.  There just isn't that much interest in Civ games from the core Civ players who founded and first migrated here.   If this was still a vibrant forum then yeah putting effort into fixing up some things would be fine.  But when there are only a dozen or so people who stop by regularly, and a couple more who stop by maybe monthly?  I just don't see that putting in a bunch of work would do much to bring a lot of traffic back.

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I come here daily, or at least mostly daily.

I expect that one day I will come here and it will be gone. :(

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[shrugs]

Like, huge job to try to bring back teh old days, Roth, but even Solver admits that it could  be done (though it would actually take someone committing to being Big Boss and slaving away for years the way I did building AC2 from actual nothing but a working (empty) forum setup, deficient in many advantages WPC still has) and a Big Boss could never do it w/o members like you pitching in.

No, I see the consensus, and propose a more modest goal of self-sustaining traffic levels/signups of Our Kind of People - and I've repeated most of what THAT would take -a little extra membership effort at posting activity, a little member efforts to get the word out about a chilled-out gamer community, an little more enthusiasm to support fun activity like demogames and MP and such, a little from each member adding to a collective LOT- two times already just in this thread, counting quotes of old speeches.  Take as read.  I was here before WPC opened, this new forum, born into the community amid drama and extensive talk on the basics of building and organizing - and I paid close attention, and, again, it's been my hobby for nine years, not really anything SMACX.

It would work better with someone exactly the right level of bossy-but-respectful, relentless-but-gentle, ambitious-but-practical, organizing and leading the people where they want to go --- but I think the circle of regulars here is small enough that it could be done through consensus to take individual action, and organized on the lines of direct -Athenian model- democracy.

At this point, I'm just organizing my thoughts on how the circle of regulars might ought to organize themselves to hold town council meetings with staff not necessarily even chairing the meetings, but participating like the rest -and that probably WOULD need a Speaker, first-among-equals to chair, not rule, while the people kick whatever around and organize themselves.

It would DEFINITELY take getting pretty much all the regulars who can be talked into caring enough to bother and try - and my heart's somewhere else, so I don't count or deserve a vote, though forum-running issues are my interest, and I'd want to chip in on the talk. 

This ought to be a viable model up to double the number of active regulars, and then we'd need to look at making adjustments - unlikely to come up in this calendar year, though a couple guys acting as E_T was so good about doing in the days of the vigorous Civ4 MP circle would make a huge difference fast. -Just it would take time, even if spectacularly successful, for newbs of Our Kind of People to learn the ropes and see if they take in the long-run.

We can work up a doable, practical, working self-governance system right here in  this thread - first thing to do is somebody take initiative to PM other regulars to encourage speaking up.  -Then we start kicking it around, w/ my idea/proposal being attacked/discussed, if needed, and kick THAT around first.  Would it work?  Could it?  Is anyone interested in trying to make it work?  Let's talk - WPC is in terrible danger w/o a healthier activity level, of changing in the not-being-here way, if we don't - but that doesn't have to happen, the world being FULL of Our Kind of People who haven't gone down the Facebook or Reddit rabbit holes, and would love it here and fit in if only they knew WPC was a thing, and found more activity here to look like a promising place to join.  One or two signups of Live Ones a year could make this place immortal...

 

[ninja'd] WPC is on my daily patrol, too, and I fear the same.  I think you're right, and the Other Games section has earned  a priority moving up to top in the root, the lowest-impact practical shift of focus w/o altering the NAME of the place...

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I think it would be great fun if there were a Civ6 democracy game again.  The aborted Norway game during the run-up to the release of Civ6 was fun (only Donald could play the game at the time since he had a pre-release version, but there was a fair amount of discussion about city placement, etc.).  But once the game officially released everyone played their own games and by the time talk of a new democracy game came about the regulars were "Civved out".  I remember E_T trying to get one going, but there was no interest.

As for MP, that's problematical because of the way peace deals for cities work in Civ6.  It invites a total war philosophy because players don't want to give up their cities that they've lost to other players.  I ran into that in a PBEM style game early on in Civ6 life, and it soured me on the MP prospect.  They're unlikely to change that, so I don't see myself able to play MP or PBEM games.

That's why we did a succession game for Stellaris instead, and are working on starting another one now that the 2.02 patch is final.

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I have an email -if my Hotmail archive still goes back to 2011- for every active Civ4 player here in the glory days.  If I compiled a list and shared, it ought to be not-a-terrible-challenge to lure back a large enough fraction to get some of THAT action going again.  -It was killed by Locutus going AWOL, after all, not really anything else, and teh pitboss stuff can be worked out.  We want almost the whole list back anyway, on the general principal that we miss Beta and Kloreep.

There's a million lines of attack on making WooPCie healthy again, and no harm in each fellow picking a (fun, activity-building) project and concentrating on it, trying much at once with all trying to throw each other a little support/interest.

Everybody can pitch in best doing whatever he feels most comfortable at, whether just posting more, firing off emails to missed friends, linking things of interest here in the right places around the net (which is why I have a Facebook tab open; it's in completion, but also one of the three ubiquitous sites on the nets that anyone can use to promote, and should) or taking on slightly ambitious (and fun) projects. or all of the above, depending.

It could happen; it would tend to do a little good, at very least. -But somebody has to try, and somebody has to go first.

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