Penry

The 'no double move war rule' discussion thread

51 posts in this topic

Gents

 

I think we need to clarify the 'no double move war rule', as it would appear that it is not clear for some members of the forum, or those that are participating in games hosted at this forum.

 

Nugog's 'don't be a douche' ruling clearly isn't clear enough for some.

 

This is what we have so far....

 

If you are the aggressor - don't be a douche and double move. If you are involved in a war do not be a douche and double move.

If you are at war and it's your turn to play, play as soon in the turn as possible, so you give your opponent(s) as much time to play their turn.

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As I see it, and can say in English, "double move" is to move twice before the other player move once.

That can be done (and is done in ladder) by moving after your opponent in one turn and then moving before him in the next turn.

It's a very powerful tool in war, mostly at its first turn.

As we do not want "double move" at war:

Since the turn war is declared, the playing order of the opponents must be the same at every turn.

To achieve this, each turn time is considered to be split in two halfs, each one for each opponent.

Easy if just two players or two groups are warring.

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Thanks Fed!

 

Now, is it allowed, or considered good etiquette, to log in before (or after) your allotted turn time to either:

 

Have a look at your turn?

or

Make some of your move, whether (considered by the player) directly relating to the war effort or not?

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Personally I think that a player at war should only log in once per turn, during their allotted turn time, and that is it. They should play their whole turn and then pass the turn on to the other party at war.

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Logging in, having a look is ok imo. Doing anything else is not!

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As much as I do believe we are all mature, honorable and responsible players, I still prefer to not log in during my opponent's half of the timer. There are many serious consideration why this should not be done and none I can think of justifying it.

 

Lets start with the common trust. I do trust my friends even when it comes to money, but nevertheless I do insist on counting money when receiving from them and also insist they count the money I give them. If something goes wrong with the money (counted wrongly before this, or some note lost in my pocket or whatever) and they were not counted by both sides, it is quite embarrassing this to be resolved after the problem is present. One will at first think is it worth to raise the question, then if question is raised will the other feel being accused and so on. Result is bad feelings. Way better to make sure there is no place for mistakes.

 

Same with logging only to look in Civ. You may log in only to look, but you have no way of proving this. And your opponent can think did you only looked or things are going wrong for him because you moved something. Again uncertainty and possible bad feelings. Way safer is to log in only in your half if you are first in the turn order. You can log in how much times you want, but once you hit End of Turn and your opponent logs in once in the game, do not enter the game until the turn switch. If you are second in turn order, dont log in before your opponent is ready with his turn and hit End of Turn.

 

And this is when it is only a matter of trust. What if you are second in turn, but log in before your opponent only to look and possibly queue some build orders. It may happens you have movements automated and they trigger, possibly changing the war situation?

 

Again we are mature. We can wait till our time comes and suppress our curiosity.

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So go for poll 1) No login in oponents time

2) Only one login with no changes at all

3) Unlimited number of login and allowing changing things what have nothing to do with war(we must specify)

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Definitely shouldn't do "un-war-related moves." What isn't war-related? Everything in your civ can be marshaled to the cause in some way! If you do log in, it should be to look only.

 

That said, 2metra is correct, something could get unintentionally moved, and even if you really didn't move anything, it's purely on the honor system that you didn't. On the other hand, if you don't log in at all, it's verifiable in the PYT log that you really didn't double move whatsoever.

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Indeed, I would also go for not logging in during the others half of the turn. That is also why IMO the turn timer needs to be expanded when a war starts. To give both players/parties enough time to move.

 

Also a player/party who for example should move in the first half, but neglects or forgets should consider their turn missed and may not login until the turn rolls over and his/her next turn is up.

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2metraninja is right.

To keep things clear never hurts.

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As much as I do believe we are all mature, honorable and responsible players, I still prefer to not log in during my opponent's half of the timer. There are many serious consideration why this should not be done and none I can think of justifying it.

 

Lets start with the common trust. I do trust my friends even when it comes to money, but nevertheless I do insist on counting money when receiving from them and also insist they count the money I give them. If something goes wrong with the money (counted wrongly before this, or some note lost in my pocket or whatever) and they were not counted by both sides, it is quite embarrassing this to be resolved after the problem is present. One will at first think is it worth to raise the question, then if question is raised will the other feel being accused and so on. Result is bad feelings. Way better to make sure there is no place for mistakes.

 

Same with logging only to look in Civ. You may log in only to look, but you have no way of proving this. And your opponent can think did you only looked or things are going wrong for him because you moved something. Again uncertainty and possible bad feelings. Way safer is to log in only in your half if you are first in the turn order. You can log in how much times you want, but once you hit End of Turn and your opponent logs in once in the game, do not enter the game until the turn switch. If you are second in turn order, dont log in before your opponent is ready with his turn and hit End of Turn.

 

And this is when it is only a matter of trust. What if you are second in turn, but log in before your opponent only to look and possibly queue some build orders. It may happens you have movements automated and they trigger, possibly changing the war situation?

 

Again we are mature. We can wait till our time comes and suppress our curiosity.

 

Excellent point, I didn't consider the implications of logging in during your opponents turn. :b:

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Hmmm. I was going to say logging in to see what is going on is acceptable, provided you don't move anything. I have been doing just that in Epic Name.

 

But 2metra raises a good point and has expressed it well. I know this issue caused problems in the DoE diplo game. In one hotly debated incident, saved Sommerswerd's derriere after a newer player did just that and caused the whole turn, and his very successful sack of Sommers city to be reversed by the game admins.

 

If the "single log-in" rule is the way we want to play, and it sounds like it has support, then I am fine with it. :b:

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Yeah, I remember that case too LOL. But I think actually it was the absence of a better auto-save available on the server to be revered the game was the reason Sommers got chance to undo his mistake, otherwise Robert ruled out the right thing to do is the game to be reloaded to where Sommers city was taken and his units sunk while at the ships. Or something like this :huh:

 

Few more words on the "login just to look" case.

 

Sometimes playing second it may turns out that you see what your opponent have done before the turn switches and you without ill intentions discuss this with a friendly player. He is not in war with the other nation and he is going to play his turn. He pure-heartedly decides to sends you few units and gift them, so in this case, without you actually moving or touching anything, you did changed the course of history.

Or if you are second in order, but login before your opponent just to look at the situation and it happens that you have succeeded in a quest and you are offered units as reward. What now - you will refuse them, because they may spawn in a threatened city and change the course of the war?

And many, many other possible scenarios which can be avoided by a simple "dont log in during your opponent's half of the timer" rule.

 

I do believe no one here will take advantage of possible loging in the incorrect half of the timer, guys, as I see you as a nice bunch of nice civvers and no one of you is actually insisting on anything. But you may want to have in mind when possibly playing in other sites and other players, that I had cases, where supposedly trusted and renowned players insist they have the right to login "Just to look". Right on when someone insists on something debatable after he was asked politely to just avoid possible conflict situations, this makes my alarm sound. And sadly it happened that in the two cases those guys actually was caught cheating with screenshots - moving armies to counter enemy moves for the next turn, even upgrading armies during our part of the timer with our movements half-done, or moving in range with ships after his opponent, making blockade, then when the turn switch, he pulls his ships in safe harbors before his opponent can react to those, losing all sea food + Oil units production and so on.

 

Actually I wont object if anyone even plays before me if he had to do that if I am late to my turn or he must play earlier to not lose the turn at all. It is OK and we just have to agree do we switch turns or we are back to normal next turn. But this requires no one to take serious advantage by restraining from attacks/moves of course.

 

But in general, as Fed said - keeping things clear is the way to go :b:

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Also a player/party who for example should move in the first half, but neglects or forgets should consider their turn missed and may not login until the turn rolls over and his/her next turn is up.

 

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

 

It seems a bit harsh to me, especially with just a 24 hour turn timer (12 hours each party in a two party war)

 

How about, if you miss your slot then the other party takes over your slot and the order is reversed?

 

Turn 4: Party A moves first / Party B moves second

Turn 5: Party A moves first / Party B moves second

Turn 6: Party A misses their slot / Party B plays their move in their slot / Party A can move if there is time to after Party B have made all their moves.

Turn 7: Party B moves first / Party A moves second

Turn 8: party B moves first / Party A moves second

 

Re Turn 6

If Party A views PYT after 14 hours of the turn has passed (ie they have missed their slot) and sees that Party B have not logged in to play their turn yet, then Party A can still log in to play their turn.

If Party B wishes to be difficult then they can delay playing their turns, thereby denying Party A a chance to play after them.

 

Donalds ruling is certainly clearer and easier, I'm just concerned that 12 hours is a very tight slot for some of us here. Maybe we should extand the turn timer during war if the above seems too complicated?

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So go for poll 1) No login in oponents time

2) Only one login with no changes at all

3) Unlimited number of login and allowing changing things what have nothing to do with war(we must specify)

 

I will certainly be setting up some poll(s), once we have discussed evrything and made sure everything is covered.

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One more point

 

In relation to the 'no logging in at all until it is your turn' ruling, what if you are playing in the second half of the turn and play last, thereby are in-game when the turn rolls over.

 

Can I presume that the onus is on the player to be honourable and log out as immediately, as soon as the turn rolls over?

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and what if first player doesn't play in first half of turn?

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Nugog's 'don't be a douche' ruling clearly isn't clear enough for some.

 

That is disappointing.

 

As much as I do believe we are all mature, honorable and responsible players, I still prefer to not log in during my opponent's half of the timer. There are many serious consideration why this should not be done and none I can think of justifying it.

 

Lets start with the common trust. I do trust my friends even when it comes to money, but nevertheless I do insist on counting money when receiving from them and also insist they count the money I give them. If something goes wrong with the money (counted wrongly before this, or some note lost in my pocket or whatever) and they were not counted by both sides, it is quite embarrassing this to be resolved after the problem is present. One will at first think is it worth to raise the question, then if question is raised will the other feel being accused and so on. Result is bad feelings. Way better to make sure there is no place for mistakes.

 

Same with logging only to look in Civ. You may log in only to look, but you have no way of proving this. And your opponent can think did you only looked or things are going wrong for him because you moved something. Again uncertainty and possible bad feelings. Way safer is to log in only in your half if you are first in the turn order. You can log in how much times you want, but once you hit End of Turn and your opponent logs in once in the game, do not enter the game until the turn switch. If you are second in turn order, dont log in before your opponent is ready with his turn and hit End of Turn.

 

And this is when it is only a matter of trust. What if you are second in turn, but log in before your opponent only to look and possibly queue some build orders. It may happens you have movements automated and they trigger, possibly changing the war situation?

 

Again we are mature. We can wait till our time comes and suppress our curiosity.

 

:b:

 

Indeed, I would also go for not logging in during the others half of the turn. That is also why IMO the turn timer needs to be expanded when a war starts. To give both players/parties enough time to move.

 

Also a player/party who for example should move in the first half, but neglects or forgets should consider their turn missed and may not login until the turn rolls over and his/her next turn is up.

 

:b:

 

and what if first player doesn't play in first half of turn?

 

I say you miss your turn. But I also agree with Donald that the turn timer needs to be extended to cope with this.

 

Double moves are always, always, the wrong thing to do.

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OK, shall we say then, in the interests of keeping the turn timer as low as possible, that when a party is at war they can request the turn timer to be increased by 12 hours.

 

To use as an example:

 

Party A (Romans) are at war with Party B (Greeks and Egyptians)

 

Party A is fine with the turn timer being set to 24 hours.

Party B (either one or both players) feel they need more time to play their turns and request the timer to be increased by 12 hours.

 

The new turn timer is 36 hours per turn - 18 hours for Party A, 18 hours for Party B

 

Note: If both parties are OK with the turns being 24 hours then the turn remains at 24 hours. If both parties want to extend the turn timer then the turn timer gets set to 48 hours (24 hours each).

 

And so on with 3,4,5.... parties in a war if necessary.

 

If you miss your slot you miss you turn - No ifs, buts or maybes - Simple and easy to follow.

 

Thoughts?

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Donalds ruling is certainly clearer and easier, I'm just concerned that 12 hours is a very tight slot for some of us here. Maybe we should extand the turn timer during war if the above seems too complicated?

 

Indeed, I would also go for not logging in during the others half of the turn. That is also why IMO the turn timer needs to be expanded when a war starts. To give both players/parties enough time to move.

;)

 

OK, shall we say then, in the interests of keeping the turn timer as low as possible, that when a party is at war they can request the turn timer to be increased by 12 hours.

 

To use as an example:

 

Party A (Romans) are at war with Party B (Greeks and Egyptians)

 

Party A is fine with the turn timer being set to 24 hours.

Party B (either one or both players) feel they need more time to play their turns and request the timer to be increased by 12 hours.

 

The new turn timer is 36 hours per turn - 18 hours for Party A, 18 hours for Party B

 

Note: If both parties are OK with the turns being 24 hours then the turn remains at 24 hours. If both parties want to extend the turn timer then the turn timer gets set to 48 hours (24 hours each).

 

And so on with 3,4,5.... parties in a war if necessary.

 

If you miss your slot you miss you turn - No ifs, buts or maybes - Simple and easy to follow.

 

Thoughts?

Sounds good. Only extending the turn timer if it's requested by a party at war.

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I agree that you shouldn't be allowed to log in 'just to look'. Avoids potential misunderstandings.

 

My vote is for:

 

Party A declares war on Party B. Party A therefore goes first and gets the first 12 hour turn-slot of a 24 hour turn timer. Party B gets the second 12 hour turn-slot.

 

If Party A does not play their turn within the first 12 hours, then they've missed their opportunity and Party B may log in an play. Likewise if Party B does not play in their timeslot, Party A can log in and play as soon as the next turn comes around.

 

Either party is entitled for an extension of the turn timer, to a maximum of 48 hours. Each party gets half the duration of the turn timer.

 

So pretty much what Rob has proposed, but for flexibility, I'd also suggest:

 

As soon as Party A hits end turn, Party B can log in and play their turn (even if it is in the first 12 hours). Party A cannot log in until the next turn, Party B cannot log in again until Party A has played. (This is just to keep up the pace of the game).

 

If Party A misses their turn-slot, but Party B has yet to log in an play in their turn-slot, then Party A may log in and play.

 

Cheers

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That is disappointing.

 

Indeed... I hate complicated rule discussions, makes my head hurt...

 

[video=youtube_share;L_ALYkBIF-4]http://youtu.be/L_ALYkBIF-4

Edited by Zoid

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;)

Sounds good. Only extending the turn timer if it's requested by the parties at war.

(I paraphrased donold's last comment for clarification) ;)

 

I second this suggestion. :b:

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I do have a question concerning the "only login during your time frame when at war" - and this concerns the PYT tracker -

 

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE MODE

What does one do when the PYT Tracker is disconnected from the game (which happends quite often - and is CURRENTLY the case)?

 

If the PYT is disconnected, the data listed is old and not current - so if you are waiting for your enemy to play his/her turn and the PYT is disconnected; how does one know if their enemy has, in fact, played their turn (except for logging into the actual game to find out)?

END DEVIL'S ADVOCATE MODE

 

Any ideas or suggestions?

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Well, now it shows as PYT being connected - but my point still remains the same. ;)

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