Penry

Terra Incognita - 18 player Pitboss game

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Regarding the 'double move' conundrum, how about the following rulings:

 

[...]

 

Thoughts gents? We have a week to thrash out a ruling regarding double moves, so let's work this out!

 

Looks good :b:

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I think my point on pauses is missed here. It matters not who presses the pause button, host or otherwise. The point is when doublemoves are banned, players MUST play in order, or else the game has to be reloaded (Which is just as bad as a pause because nobody can really do anything while we wait for the host to reload).

 

Playing in order means that I can't play until AFTER you play, and if you take 20 hrs to play in a 24 hour turn, then the game gets paused, because I am either at work or sleeping during those few hours. When there is Turnorder, there is a lot of pausing. That is my point about pauses.

 

Ok, got it.

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Why all these kind of new rules, let us play with the game as is!
Yeah! Why we make such a complicated and most important uncontrolable rules? How we are going to control if players do speak by PMs and are plotting against someone? Shall we call someone a liar if he happened to be sharpening his knife for the weak neighbor and attack, just because the neighbor of said weakling from the other side also wants a piece of easy gain? Or after 20 turns preparation for war someone to call the attack off, just because someone else is declaring to the victim 1 turn before him? You get the point. I do agree that pre-meeting-in-game kind of agreements (you are my buddy, lets act together no matter if it makes sense in-game or not) are low and should not be made, but that cant be avoided either - we depend on the honor of the players here too. About naming gifted units, we have tried this once and mid-game we all just let it go, as this was not practical - what about upgrades? What is player One builds a warrior, give him to Zulu to be upgraded to Impi, then return him to Player one, who gifts it to player Three later and Player Three upgrades him to rifle using Player Fourth's services and then gift it to Player Five? How all of this is going to be indicated?

 

Bottom line about special game rules: let the people play the game as best as they can.

 

About double-moves, I see two possible approaches:

 

1. I do believe that a 48 hours turn timer (which I see is the default opinion) will give any player at least nice 24 hours to play his turn. If he still cant play, he must arrange for a sub. Once 24 hours are past, the next player is free to go in and play and the first player loses his turn. Still noblesse obliges that if the one who is second in turn if possible wait for the other to possibly catch on and play his turn as normal. When multi-parties war occurs, those who join sides after the initial attack must obey the same turn order as the respective block. This way no pauses are required if I think we must still discourage double- moves and if someone objects, the game must be reloaded.

 

2. We allow double- moves. Players are free to double-move and each and everyone must have this in mind when settling cities/building defense. This is not a good idea to my thinking, as many people will be annoyed - more than from a paused games :)

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We depend on honor on a number of occasions. And as far as I know, this has gone well here at WPC. Let's keep doing that and not make things unnecessary difficult.

 

I agree on the double moves proposition of 48 hours in wartime. 24 hours for each player, keeping the turnorder of the start of the war. Easy and simple!

 

And now, let's send that PM to Ozzy and play this thing! (until it's talked to death...)

 

just my 2 cents ;)

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Regarding the 'double move' conundrum, how about the following rulings:

[snip]

 

Make sure that you allow the defenders to be able to play in the first 24 hours If and ONLY IF all of the aggressors have already played their turns. This helps keep the game going, if possible.

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Yeah! Why we make such a complicated and most important uncontrolable rules? How we are going to control if players do speak by PMs and are plotting against someone? Shall we call someone a liar if he happened to be sharpening his knife for the weak neighbor and attack, just because the neighbor of said weakling from the other side also wants a piece of easy gain? Or after 20 turns preparation for war someone to call the attack off, just because someone else is declaring to the victim 1 turn before him? You get the point.

 

No, because that's not what I proposed. In the scenario constructed by you each attacker could take 1 city.

 

That aside, I'm sorry to announce, that my participation may be in danger by a possible business trip abroad over several weeks in February. While I could continue my PBEMs during this time (I'd be able to send/receive emails), I wouldn't be able to play a pitboss game. Whether it's me who will be sent to this client or one of my colleagues, will be decided within this week. Chances are low that it's me (~25%), but exist.

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Regards Double moves IDC either way I Sure dont intend on losing one anyway :)

 

Are we playing with barbs and goodie huts on or off?

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Barb and goodie huts are an unknown quantity, as will be every other setting other than the handful listed, in accordance to the name and nature of the game.

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1. "New Random Seed" must be checked for Pitboss games. Explaining this does more harm then good so if you're skeptical about it just leave it unchecked, it usually isn't a problem.

 

2. Don't forget about doublechecking the date Ozzy!! :D- Maybe just turn off score as a victory condition...

 

3. Like Viking says, I'd prefer no rules but if we are going to try the turn splitting thing:(, then 48 hours turn minimum seems like the only reasonable way to go.

 

4. Many wars will be "complex" with 18 players. So if we use the 3-way-turn-splitting system, I would recommend lengthening to 72 hours in any complex war. I would also then recommend that we ban asking for pauses. So if you're in the first or middle position and you miss your turn, you just miss it and the next player gets to skip you, no pausing to extend your play time.

 

To make sure I (and at least one other someone) understands this 3-way split system. Could someone who played DoE confirm that it would have worked in the Great War?

 

It went, Vik v. English, Rus v. Vik, France v. English, Rus v France, Rus v. Germany, India v. Rus, Ottoman v. France, Israel v. Ottoman. Mali v. Israel, Ottoman v. Germany. So the SAT question for the day is, when is Israel's move? What about Mali? India?

 

Anyway, I would hope we have it resolved before the first war starts, because I think the turn-splitting with a strict no-pause rule has great promise/potential:)

 

5. What about making this a Diplogame with stories anonymous IDs and storypoints :D? I think that goes along with what someone else suggested. This has nothing really to do with the pausing thing, I just think diplogames are more fun.;)

Edited by Sommerswerd

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anonymous ids?

 

I don't think I have time to run a DL here.

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Yah - no anonymous ID's. They work well in a diplo games, which this is not.

 

Rob and Ozzie - NO TECH BROKERING. I think that was agreed to.

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Why all these kind of new rules, let us play with the game as is!

 

Have you ever been double-moved during war in a pitboss game? That's why. :)

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We depend on honor on a number of occasions. And as far as I know, this has gone well here at WPC. Let's keep doing that and not make things unnecessary difficult.

 

I agree on the double moves proposition of 48 hours in wartime. 24 hours for each player, keeping the turnorder of the start of the war. Easy and simple!

 

 

:nod: :b: :b:

 

And obviously no double move when war is declared.

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Would you care to elaborate when you say "in-game countermeasures"

 

I think what he was suggesting was that if you are double moved, then you clearly have the opportunity to do it back at your opponent this turn. In that way, a war could conceivably become a series of double moves.

 

Along with of course, all the preparatory and cautionary measures you would take knowing that double moves are allowed - city placement, city defense, defense in depth, prepared counter-attacking forces, etc.

 

(sorry for the series of posts, but ideas just kept popping into my head.)

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I'm really hoping that there will be a sort of rulebook made at the end of all this, because even trying to keep up with it is making my head spin. My multiplayer experience is limited, so, I'll just be glad enough to play the game however we decide it will be done.

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On "in game anti-double move measures":

 

all things Beta suggested +

 

MOST IMPORTANTLY: becoming known as a double mover has severe diplomatic and other draw backs (war etc..)..

The double mover will think twice when it really gets him into trouble..

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raf, there will only be one rule, that will be regarding double moving and will be posted along with known settings and game info in the opening post of the tracking thread for this game, which I will post this coming weekend.

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1. "New Random Seed" must be checked for Pitboss games. Explaining this does more harm then good so if you're skeptical about it just leave it unchecked, it usually isn't a problem.

 

Please explain if you get the chance/inclination, by PM if you want to keep the harm out of this thread

 

4. Many wars will be "complex" with 18 players. So if we use the 3-way-turn-splitting system, I would recommend lengthening to 72 hours in any complex war. I would also then recommend that we ban asking for pauses. So if you're in the first or middle position and you miss your turn, you just miss it and the next player gets to skip you, no pausing to extend your play time.

 

:b: 72 hours for complex wars sounds reasonable to me. If there is a breaking of the double move ruling a reload will be processed though.

 

To make sure I (and at least one other someone) understands this 3-way split system. Could someone who played DoE confirm that it would have worked in the Great War?

 

It went, Vik v. English, Rus v. Vik, France v. English, Rus v France, Rus v. Germany, India v. Rus, Ottoman v. France, Israel v. Ottoman. Mali v. Israel, Ottoman v. Germany. So the SAT question for the day is, when is Israel's move? What about Mali? India?

 

Presuming that when you say 'Vik vs English' you mean that Vikings declared war on the English:

 

First 24 hour period (only defending)(in any order):

England

Germany

 

Middle 24 hour period (attacking and defending)(in any order)

Viking

Russia

France

Ottoman

Israel

 

Last 24 hour period (only attacking)(in any order)

India

Mali

 

5. What about making this a Diplogame with stories anonymous IDs and storypoints :D? I think that goes along with what someone else suggested. This has nothing really to do with the pausing thing, I just think diplogames are more fun.;)

 

I think anonymous won't get much traction in this game, but people should feel free to roleplay/story post as much or as little as they want, when they want.

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Rob and Ozzie - NO TECH BROKERING. I think that was agreed to.

 

I thought it was between No Tech Brokering and No Tech Trading, but I'm easy if you want this setting, it will at least allow more diplomacy.....

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:nod: :b: :b:

 

And obviously no double move when war is declared.

Wait, I dont get what you are nodding yes to:scared: Do you mean first log in for war must be preceeded by first login in the turn prior?... And what do you mean "obviously"... That sounds alot like 'implied' rules to me. Implied rules can cause problems down the line. If we are playing with rules then we need a rule book. If its not in the rulebook then its not a rule, period.:p Thats MY opinion. One man's "obvious" rule is another man's "I never even heard of that!"... just sayin;)
Please explain if you get the chance/inclination, by PM if you want to keep the harm out of this thread
OK I will send a PM
:b: 72 hours for complex wars sounds reasonable to me. If there is a breaking of the double move ruling a reload will be processed though.
That makes sense, but the pauses, pauses, pauses... I dont mind pauses, even LONG ones FTR, but I have seen games disentegrate because of pauses :( (DoE)
Presuming that when you say 'Vik vs English' you mean that Vikings declared war on the English:.
Yes thats exactly right
First 24 hour period (only defending)(in any order):

England

Germany

 

Middle 24 hour period (attacking and defending)(in any order)

Viking

Russia

France

Ottoman

Israel

 

Last 24 hour period (only attacking)(in any order)

India

Mali

Now I dont think this works. Heres why... Viking, France and Russia are at war with each other. They cant move during the same period or there will be double moves right? What if Russia logs in at the beginning of the middle period both times? Same thing for France, Ottomans, and Israel. Thery are at war. How can they share the middle time period?

 

This needs to be reworked/rethought.:(. Maybe adding another (4th) 24 hour time period or even a fifth or 6th 24hr period whenever needed to preserve turn order...

 

Another thing to think about... If I am wanting to DoW but I want to wait for my target to move (as per the rules) but my target fails to move, and there is only 5 mins left in the turn so I DoW them, and then the turn rolls while I am still logged in... What happens? Reload? To when? Who gets to move and when? Just some things that popped into my head... Trivial now, but game-killers if it comes up in the middle of a big war.:(

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Just sent to Ozzy

 

OzzyKP, we have assembled our starting 18 and we are ready to venture forth into the unknown. Please could you design for us an awesome map to your liking, using the following criteria only:

 

BeyondTheSword game rules

Map Size - Huge

Start Era - Ancient

Game Speed - Normal

Difficulty level - Monarch

 

Simultaneous turns - ticked

Take over AI - ticked

No tech brokering - ticked

New random seed on reload - unticked

All victory conditions - ticked

Turn timer - 48 hours

 

Everyone is to have random civs. A third party will randomly assign a numbered slot for each player which will correspond to the slot in the list of Civs upon arriving at the 'Select a Civilization' screen in the Pitboss lobby. I.e. the player in slot one gets the civ at the top of the list upon logging into the Artemis server, the player in slot two gets the second civ on the list......

 

Everything else is up to you good sir. All we ask is that we get to have a fun and challenging game!

 

If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask, either via PM or via the thread in the forum.

 

http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showthread.php?6754-Terra-Incognita-18-player-Pitboss-game

 

If your map could be ready by Sunday that would be awesome, otherwise please advise an approximate ETA so all the participants will be in the loop.

 

Cheers once again for all your help and enthusiasm in this matter.

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

 

I believe he doesn't need most of the above info to design the map, so hopefully we can still tweak the 'reload seed' setting if needs be.....

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Crap - you expect me to read all of that?

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Yah - no anonymous ID's. They work well in a diplo games, which this is not.

 

Rob and Ozzie - NO TECH BROKERING. I think that was agreed to.

 

I personally prefer NO TECH TRADING but will play either way. Just needs adjustment in the strategy :)

 

It is believed that tech trading equalize the difference in the playing strengths of the players, which is somewhat good i.e. gives chance to less experienced players to stay alive/achieve something more and enjoy the game more, but on the other hand, tech trading soon or later deteriorates the game in to 2 huge tech trading blocks. What is the logic and the proof behind this? If the others tech trade and you dont, you fall from the train for sure. No other option. There is no game skills that can offset 2:1 or 3:1 or God forbid 9:1 return for your beakers.

 

What I have seen in my experience with tech-trading games is that those who are unlucky enough to be left in the smaller tech alliance or dropped completely on their own, have only chance of doing something in the ancient/classical times. After this, the game and the tech pace starts to move so quick and the blocks are so tight, that the next war is with infantries, and then there are nukes. With 18 players trading techs, we will be in nukes time around turn 300 and the game will be finished around turn 330.

 

I strongly suggest we play with NO TRADING TECH :)

 

Just my 2 cents. :)

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