Penry

Terra Incognita - 18 player Pitboss game

282 posts in this topic

Obviously, allowing doublemoves creates the potential for some particularly devastating DoW 1st attacks. Now we know that the person being attacked is always unhappy, the person who is surprise attacked is always the one who loses heart and wants to leave the game. Getting DoWed sucks, especially when you didnt expect it its like a kick in the gut.

 

So there are 2 possibilities. The first is that the defender is well prepared and able to withstand the initial Doublemove attack and fight back, stay in the fight and continue, maybe even plotting some nasty doublemove responses of their own. The second possibility is that the defender is totally unprepared and gets caught with their pants down completely, with devastating results, they lose heart, quit, and are quickly elimminated :(. But isn't that better than neverending pauses and reloads?

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Ok, I'm in, so long as the game won't begin until Thursday at the soonest. I have to get paid, then buy a new copy. Game on, guys!!!

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I'm sure Rob told you also have to stick your head in in OT regularly. :nod:

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:woohoo:

 

Great news raf! We've now got 18 hardy adventurers, ready to set off into the unknown. I'll let OzzyKP know ASAP.......

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Update time - the list of hardy adventurers about to set forth...

 

1: Rob

2: 2metraninja

3: Viking

4: Zoid

5: ChrisiusMaximus

6: fed1943

7: benjpeters

8: Sommerswerd

9: Rhothaerill

10: Beta

11: Nugog

12: Bantams

13: donald23

14: andydog

15: Harovan

16: Unorthodox

17: Kloreep

18: raf0485

 

Possible subs:

 

1: Strudo76

2: godking

3: Geomodder

4: E_T

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Obviously, allowing doublemoves creates the potential for some particularly devastating DoW 1st attacks. Now we know that the person being attacked is always unhappy, the person who is surprise attacked is always the one who loses heart and wants to leave the game. Getting DoWed sucks, especially when you didnt expect it its like a kick in the gut.

 

What about a simple rule then, that double moves aren't allowed in the DoW turn? That's just 1 turn to watch and should limit annoyance to a minimum.

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Obviously, allowing doublemoves creates the potential for some particularly devastating DoW 1st attacks. Now we know that the person being attacked is always unhappy, the person who is surprise attacked is always the one who loses heart and wants to leave the game. Getting DoWed sucks, especially when you didnt expect it its like a kick in the gut.

 

So there are 2 possibilities. The first is that the defender is well prepared and able to withstand the initial Doublemove attack and fight back, stay in the fight and continue, maybe even plotting some nasty doublemove responses of their own. The second possibility is that the defender is totally unprepared and gets caught with their pants down completely, with devastating results, they lose heart, quit, and are quickly elimminated :(. But isn't that better than neverending pauses and reloads?

 

In that case we can as well tick the "always war" box and get rid of all the non-warmongers even before the game starts. :rolleyes: This is NOT a ladder game, some people want to focus on something else than military...

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:rolleyes: This is NOT a ladder game
I keep hearing that term thrown around... "Ladder game", ladder game, ladder game... that I'm trying to turn it into a ladder game. :lol: I don't even know what a "ladder game" is! I mean I've heard if it, but I've never played one, so I really have only the slightest idea what they are all about.

 

Anyway, it seems, from the complaints about ladder games here, that they must be very nasty affairs indeed, where nobody builds anything but soldiers, "always war" is checked and the whole point of the game is to log in at the turn roll to always doublemove everyone :(...

 

Or are they just really competitive games where everyone wants to win, and everyone plays to win. It's funny, because in DoE, I remember players complaining that there was too much cooperation, and people weren't playing to win :rolleyes:, now if people are playing their own game, and aggressively playing FTW its a naughty, bad "laddergame".

 

TBH, the ONLY reason I want DMs allowed is so that there are no pauses or reloads. Frankly, I think allowing DMs will mean LESS war, as people will want to avoid exposing themselves. Just my opinion.

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DM allows for a unbalanced game and favours warmongers. This sucks imo. That's MY opinion...

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In DoF we have the experience with a honor rule of no double moves, but the game host doesn't pause for double moves.

It's up to players to take counteraction. And that does work.

 

Double moves are still posted and frowned upon.

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Oh, the game host doesn't pause for DM. It's up to the players themselves to do this. If a DM is made (and only then) the game will be reloaded. No pause is necessary, everyone plays on.

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The Ladder League is a group of people who play very cutthroat style of play., where getting that added edge trumps sophisticated Diplomatic Maneuvers. Mostly people who also like to play quick MP games.

 

In my Demo Gaming experience, the Ladder people had an Inter-site team that truly sucked at diplo, because they had practically zero experience with Diplomacy. They were good at war, but IIRC, we were better, especially when we could end run them in the diplo fields.

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As I was the one who first spoke in this thread of "ladder game" I think I must explain:

 

The word "ladder" was used by the people who played said variant, so it isn't to mean "bad", obviously.

 

The essence of the ladder is that speed also counts, and much. So, there are "double moves", "fast moves" and sometimes to wait for the change of turn to

profit from the "flashing" that makes the move prior to other people'moves. The movement of units must be given priority over the choice of build or research.

 

The goal is not to find the optimal play, instead to make an useful play on time. To consider all the aspects of the game at the same time, fast and now, as I was told by Tommynt, perhaps the best ladder player.

 

Nothing wrong with this, but it's clearly a very different game.

 

And I, as one, do not like this way of playing. That's all.

 

So, if people want to try and play said variant, so be it. Nothing wrong with. But I will stay out.

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:) Hey, E_T, I have read the thread at the League about this inter-site demo game, although I missed it in the time. How it ended? Who was the main competitors back then?

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Fast moves require all the players who are competing for the fast move to be online on the switch of the turn and require specific knowledge, skills and planning and are not very dangerous in a pitboss. While double-moves can be nasty without big efforts with the different time zones and timer of many hours :)

 

Yes, someone who is used to think with the double- moves in mind will have advantage if/when things come to planning an attack, thats for sure - it takes a whole new mindset when double-moves are possibility. But it is not something completely different like falling from another planet - you just have to plan things according to this. You leave bigger buffer zone between you and your neighbor, plant border cities more careful (yes, having lake or peak on the endangered diagonal is a great idea ;) or at least having hill with forest and fort on the diagonal).

 

But when speaking of double-moves and league legends, I have read what Jobe has said - that if someone loses the game because of a double- move, then he was about to lose it anyway :)

 

I am not in any way praising allowing double-moves in this game, just saying that it must be clear from the beginning if we allow them or they are banned and how we handle them.

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Oh, the game host doesn't pause for DM. It's up to the players themselves to do this. If a DM is made (and only then) the game will be reloaded. No pause is necessary, everyone plays on.
I think my point on pauses is missed here. It matters not who presses the pause button, host or otherwise. The point is when doublemoves are banned, players MUST play in order, or else the game has to be reloaded (Which is just as bad as a pause because nobody can really do anything while we wait for the host to reload).

 

Playing in order means that I can't play until AFTER you play, and if you take 20 hrs to play in a 24 hour turn, then the game gets paused, because I am either at work or sleeping during those few hours. When there is Turnorder, there is a lot of pausing. That is my point about pauses.

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On:

 

Oh, the game host doesn't pause for DM. It's up to the players themselves to do this. If a DM is made (and only then) the game will be reloaded. No pause is necessary, everyone plays on. I think my point on pauses is missed here. It matters not who presses the pause button, host or otherwise.

 

In DoF NO ONE pauses or reloads. The players take in-game countermeasures IF someone should double move; and if one does, it is posted in the thread..

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Would you care to elaborate when you say "in-game countermeasures"

 

I still don't see the problem with Zoid's proposed 24 hour rule. Civ is a turn based game and we should take whatever measures are needed to ensure that turns are played 'fairly' when crucial events occur - i.e. during war.

 

IF someone goes to war with someone else then party A gets to move in the first 24 hours, party B gets to move in the second 24 hours. Shouldn't be too hard.....

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Unless I hear otherwise in the next 24 hours, I will send the following PM to OzzyKP at this time tomorrow:

 

OzzyKP, we have assembled our starting 18 and we are ready to venture forth into the unknown. Please could you design for us an awesome map to your liking, using the following criteria only:

 

BeyondTheSword game rules

Map Size - Huge

Start Era - Ancient

Game Speed - Normal

Difficulty level - Monarch

 

Simultaneous turns - ticked

Take over AI - ticked

New random seed on reload - unticked

All victory conditions - ticked

Turn timer - 48 hours

 

Everyone is to have random civs. A third party will randomly assign a numbered slot for each player which will correspond to the slot in the list of Civs upon arriving at the 'Select a Civilization' screen in the Pitboss lobby. I.e. the player in slot one gets the civ at the top of the list upon logging into the Artemis server, the player in slot two gets the second civ on the list......

 

Everything else is up to you good sir. All we ask is that we get to have a fun and challenging game!

 

Speak up now gents if there is anything in the above that you strongly object to!

 

All going well, I hope to be able to kick this game off in exactly one week, presuming that OzzyKP has finished the map and raf0485 has bought and installed his new copy of civ. Failing the intended kick off time, 48 hours notice shall be given of a new kick off time. :)

 

Edit: spelling mistake

Edited by Penry

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<New random seed on reload - untitled>

 

What is this? (I know what you meant)

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Doh! I meant unticked!

 

If you're taking about the meaning of the setting, it means that if there is a reloaded save for any reason, then the same 'random' number sequence will be used on reloading - I.e. if a lion attacked a warrior and killed him before the reload, then it will do exactly the same after the reload.

Edited by Penry

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Regarding the 'double move' conundrum, how about the following rulings:

 

First, some definitions:

 

Aggressor - a civilization that initiates a period of war.

Defender - a civilization that, on the initial turn of a period of war, is subject to an act of aggression from an aggressor.

Aggressor/defender - a civilization that both initiated a period of war and also finds themselves on the receiving end of an act of aggression, or vice versa.

 

Simple war - A period of war between two parties, be they one civilization verses another civilization, or one alliance verses another alliance, or any combination of the above.

Complex war - A period of war involving three or more parties, be they individual civilizations or alliances, or any combination of them.

 

Proposed rulings:

 

Simple war

 

Once an aggressor initiates a period of war the aggressor will, from that turn on, play in the second half (second 24 hours) of each subsequent turn, until the period of war reaches a conclusion from either elimination of one side or the other, or through diplomatic means.

 

Once an aggressor initiates a period of war, the defender will, from that turn on, play in the first half (first 24 hours) of each subsequent turn, until the period of war reaches a conclusion from either elimination of one side or the other, or through diplomatic means.

If the defender is unable to play their move in the first half of any given turn, the aggressor may play before the defender for that turn only. The following turn the move sequence returns to the above ruling.

 

In practice, on the turn that the aggressor initiatives a period of war, if they attack before the defender has moved the defender will get two moves in a row (one move at the end of the turn that the aggressor initiates the period of war and one move at the beginning of the next turn) - this favours the defender on the first turn of war - the aggressor is in control of the initiation of the period of war, so if they don't want the defender to have two moves in a row they should wait until the defender has moved and then declare war.

 

Complex war

 

Use the above 'simple war' ruling while a war is a simple one between two parties. Once a third (and subsequent) party becomes involved use the following rulings

 

If an aggressor is the subject of an act of aggression from a third party they will henceforth become an aggressor/defender and will play in the middle third of each subsequent turn. (middle 16/24 hours, depending on turn length)

 

If a defender initiatives an aggressive act against a third party they will henceforth become an aggressor/defender and will play in the middle third of each subsequent turn. (middle 16/24 hours, depending on turn length)

 

Simple aggressors (only attacking other parties) will play in the final third of each turn. (final 16/24 hours, depending on turn length)

 

Simple defenders (only defending against other parties) will play in the first third of each turn. (first 16/24 hours, depending on turn length)

 

If any party misses their turn slot (16/24 hours) the next party may make their move before the absent party completes their move for that turn. The following turn the move sequence reverts to the above ruling.

 

Thoughts gents? We have a week to thrash out a ruling regarding double moves, so let's work this out!

Edited by Penry

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I have another proposal, to get out of that turn order prison:

 

Wars are ok, as are double moves, period. However, to prevent overly exploiting the system and to strike a deal between warmongers and builders/peacenicks, I propose the following rule:

 

- In every war campaign (defined from DoW to peace 1-vs-1), after losing 1 city, the unlucky defender (not the attacker!) has the right to demand an end of hostilities, if he doesn't think he can take his city back in the same campaign. To achieve this, he has to offer peace in-game, and the attacker (now 1 city bigger) has to accept it. A new war can be started by either side only after the period the game enforces to keep the peace (I think it's ~10 turns, depending on speed). This should keep more people in the game longer without eliminating competitive playing.

 

- Diplomacy should be limited to in-game means. No contact - no treaty. After meeting and researching the appropriate techs, other things are possible (right of passage/gifting units, vassalage, defense pact etc.), but they need to be openly visible through in-game means, no secret plotting.

 

- If possible, personalities are kept secret. Player names are the same as in-game leader names.

 

- Borrowing/gifting units is ok, but these units need to be marked (Incan Maceman, Chinese War Elephant, etc.). Asking a neighbor for help should be coded by offering a gift of x gold in-game (x=1, if that's not possible, perhaps 10).

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Why all these kind of new rules, let us play with the game as is!

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