Rhoth

WPC Civ4 Diplogame set-up thread

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Ok, then I'm closing the game down after taking a final save.

 

Thanks all for playing! You have been a nice group to host :)

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I thank Donald that thanks to you and Calantian able to play my favorite game.:beer:

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Hope you guys enjoyed the map.

I have another map coming up.

 

I may be motivated to finish it, if we get a group of players you want to play it. :)

 

 

 

 

teasery.jpg

 

 

MAIN FEATURES OF THE MAP:

 

1) Balanced starting position for all 8 players

 

2) Some chokepoints on the map (narrow point with hills and forest)

 

3) Furthermore the most and best resources in the center

 

4) Spread all other resources across the map:

some northern resoruces (e.g. fur, deer), some southern resources (banana, win etc.), some eastern and some western.

>>> Then you have reason for war and trade.

 

5) Make sure everybody has copper in the start.

 

6) Put a large barb city in the center, with some developed improvements (copper, horse and iron). (optional)

 

7) Make land / sea crossing (like an "X", give these rivers). Then all rivers are connected and all lands are connected.

These can be crossed by sea forces if one posesses the fortress at this location.

 

8) Place some little islands with crucial resources in the rivers to make sea war also interesting.

 

9) Make land at some points one tile wide (so by building a fort somebody can go from one body of water to the other.

 

10) Make it a visually appealing map (this will come step-by-step)

 

11) Name points of interest for increased immersion.

 

12) Increase level of interaction between players by making landbridges. This allows for naval or land invasions, or both

 

13) Make map wrap both from north-to-south and from east-to-west (again increased interaction and more possibilities)

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I would love we to have a post-action report and discussion. DNK, are you around? :expect:

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Well, I've been traveling the past week or so, but I'm here and ready to do a wrap up. I'll start, I guess.

 

The Spartan Perspective

Ancient History

 

Well, I started the game with high hopes of another RP along the lines of DoE (my first diplogame), though those quickly got dashed by low enthusiasm. I then settled into a rather long period of isolationist building. I did barely any diplo at all, save for negotiating territorial boundaries (very easy to do on a peninsula :D).

 

Then, somewhere around mid-game, things picked up. I realized we were closing in on the Industrial Era, and here I was in a dominant position. I wanted to grab Sushi, which I recognized as a very major "get" in this game. After looking around at the field, I knew I couldn't get it alone. I expected mzprox to go for it, and despite his long-running early-game war with Cal he still was the tech leader and clearly aiming for a corp, likely Sushi as well. At this point, I looked around and saw that, hey, Ozzy's my neighbor (again) and I know we can work together well from prior games. I then started on the path to the late game, teaming up with Ozzy, who also had a good tech position, to pool resources for a Sushi grab.

 

Sushi Bid

 

From there on out, me and Ozzy worked together fairly closely. We made some mistakes on the beeline, and things really shouldn't have been as close as they were. At first, our primary concern was mzprox. Obviously, having been defeated by him in DoF (though certainly 2metra played a very large part in this, mzprox just rolled through us and really could have at any time in the game alone) and knowing him to be a top-notch economic player, we were highly interested in knocking him down a peg and focused on him primarily. I was still a bit out of international politics at this point, though, and I think Ozzy also wasn't as active as we needed to be, so neither of us did the serious alliance building needed for the late game. We tried to find a way to team up on mzprox, but realized after a while that it would take too long and Sushi would be completed before anything succeeded. About half-way through this bid, I also noticed that, hey, 2metra's going for Sushi also, and hey, 2metra's actually the real threat, but even then there was little I felt we could do to stop the late-game juggernaut.

 

Anyway, we had forgotten the first rule of international politics: have a large army. Both of us were going all-out for Sushi, which meant little could be spared for forces. I think I started to build up (slowly) after handing off things to Ozzy, but I was still in "builder mode", focusing on national wonders like Globe, Ironworks, and a late Oxford. This is a fatal flaw in my economic building approach: relying on slow production in large-pop, highly cottaged major cities. But more on that later... Anyway, we had little clout, a miniature navy considering our position, and only managed to succeed on Sushi due to the other 2 rivals making mistakes of their own. I must say, though, that telling Ozzy to put off Corporation until the end saved our asses, though it was for a different reason than to confuse you guys into quitting the race.

Sushtopia

 

Unfortunately, I suck at using corporations, and never really managed to leverage Sushi as well as I should have. We also got slammed by our sole focus on the economy around this time with Balat's invasion. Ozzy managed to turn up a decent navy of somewhat obsolete ships in short order once we switched focus, but he then quit all the same. Around this time, 2metra was becoming the clear game-ending favorite, if he wasn't already well before. 2metra was very gentlemanly about it all, and we agreed to keep the Balat-Minos, 2metra-DNK matchups separate to give Sparta a fighting chance. The world had 3 basic wars between all 3 of the Anatolian League's evil civilizations and the enlightened Greeks now.

 

In addition, there was the gangpile of Macedon. I have already commented publicly about this, but let me clarify the history as I recall it. It started, as I said, as a way to prevent mzprox from getting Sushi, but didn't get executed until later. I tried calling it off once I saw the pointlessness of it, especially as I was moving away from seeing mzprox as such a threat. But, Ozzy had already assembled a coalition (though I had severe doubts as to its effectiveness, especially Athens' commitment) and I bowed out and suggested they stop before it started. I do agree that it was inappropriate for Ozzy to do so as the sub for Illyria, though it also was a bit reasonable given Illyria's crap position. Grey area, but a bit dark, and I'd be pissed were I in mzprox's shoes as well. I pledged to give some help to Beta if he needed it, according to my trying to improve and solidify ally relations, but that never went anywhere anyway, so I gave them some intel and otherwise kept on building.

 

I basically told 2metra that I had no chance against him, I think publicly told him he had won a good game, and sort of settled in to a long war of attrition ending in a loss for both me and Minos. I can be a bit of a fatalist sometimes... 2metra told me we should do an East-West matchup, but I told him there was no reason to drag the others into my war, but he read things differently as events unfolded and claimed I had done exactly what I hadn't, as I had withdrawn from international politics as soon as I sank his first fleet. After that, I came to the others to show them his declaration of an East-West war and I guess he succeeded in it.

 

World War

 

Obviously, I had low expectations. By this point, Lydia was so clearly in the lead that defeating it was nigh impossible without turning both of his allies against him. With one of them being Sommers, those odds were as long as Crete. The war for that island actually turned out well as I managed to whip/draft up a reasonable defense force with no Spartan help. Actually, it worked the other way around as Sparta sucked up the Minoan fleet for upgrades against Lydia's growing navy. I somewhat enjoyed holding off Balat, though without a navy and heavily crippled, Minos would never again be competitive and would just need to wait for Balat to tech up and build up a more advanced army, which he basically did near game's end with carriers and an air force capable of turning the tide.

 

The big issue in the Spartan War was production, and despite 2metra bemoaning his naval production handicap (lol) he had about a 2:1 naval production lead by the time he took out my fleet. About that, I was fairly sure he was leading me out with his "Greece coming over to Lydia", but this was about where I started getting impatient and realized that with his production edge that my fleet was toast sooner or later, and I'd rather go up against a 1.5x larger fleet of mostly destroyers than a 2x larger fleet with a much larger battleship contingent. I think given that he had first strike and planes that I came out fairly well at about 2:1 losses, but obviously there was no avoiding the inevitable after that point and in retrospect it was a pointless loss, though holding out longer would have just been postponing the inevitable (psychology is important, I guess, as it causes quicker wins and sloppier play for opponents - I am not the most assured warfighter, eh?).

 

After that, the war turned into much the same as with Minos, except by now I had lost most patience with being patient, and eventually decided to just pull out everything and have one last, glorious suicide run into Greece, which is a definite tendency of mine ;) That ended horribly as I forgot about commando promotions (or, more accurately, remembered just after logging out and not bothering to fix it by logging back in). While a suicide run could work with my territory intact and many turns between my forces and Lydia's invasion forces, without it my forces would quickly get pincered and knocked out by Lydian forces, so back to Sparta, and at that point there was little point, my morale was totally shot, and sloppiness ensued until I quit.

Reflections on a Lost Cause

 

First, 2metra earned this win, though I do have some issues with the game as it evolved. The first goes back a ways to when we discussed turning it into elimination. My concerns then were that I had had almost the entire game with two fairly weak civs on my borders but little reason to expand into them given the terms of the game at that point. I could have taken very little of Athens, and the expense of building a military, etc, wouldn't make up for whatever gains I received until much later. Beta was a bit of a more tempting target, but he showed (unlike Athens) to be a trustworthy and peaceful neighbor, and I generally encourage and nurture such neighbors instead of invading them. However, Lydia just kept expanding and expanding due to issues with Balat's prior players (I had to take over and it was a bit of a catastrophe when I got in, not too much better when I left it) as well as, I think, Titus'. At any rate, because the game was non-elimination, Lydia had almost 3x the territory of anyone else (peacefully at that), while the rest of us were highly constrained by game rules and incentives. This isn't to knock 2metra, but it is a general bone of contention. Had we done an elimination game much earlier, I think this would have been much more interesting and lively with a less guaranteed conclusion. As soon as it became obviously a non-diplo/RP game, we should've decided for elimination.

 

As it was, with mzprox and Cal at each other's throats for so much of it, and with me quite at a distance and perpetually vulnerable, 2metra basically got to walk away with it for so much of the game, only really having to fight (purely offensively) at the end for the win. Of course, being again a highly insular power in this game, 2metra had a very strong position defensively and strategically, and having so much land only multiplied this good position. If attacked, he could pull a Stalin and just pull back and back while he whip/drafted a counterattack and the offense pushed their lines out too far. With so little coastal territory by comparison and about a third of his boundaries on the map edge, his vulnerability:size ratio was very low. On the other hand, mine was extremely high, being almost 100% coastal, and most others' was mixed but still far more vulnerable. I'm actually amazed that 2metra didn't "fork" more of my cities in his initial invasion before the collapse.

 

So, with a huge advantage in territorial defensibility, neighboring allies, and just huge territorial size and resources, plus his immense playing/diplomacy skill, I doubt anyone could have taken 2metra out by mid-game, certainly not by the time Sushi was grabbed. That's not to diminish his win, but just to explain it as I see it. Additionally, he ran a very good economy for such a position and game and mod. I have enjoyed playing with you guys to see how to better run an economy, and in this game with my espionage in full force, I got to spend most of the game with near-total visibility on all cities on the map. It was interesting noting how mzprox managed his impressive results with so many small cities and how 2metra managed to dominate with a late-game hammer/food economy (which works amazingly better than a cottage-based one in MP I think). Everyone saw his production numbers, but I think with his huge food numbers, they must have been at least 30-40% higher in actuality due to drafting and/or whipping. Really, this is much better than my own economic attempts, which are far more traditional.

 

As much as position, etc, determined 2metra's win here, I think many other players would have had a much harder time managing it, and it wouldn't have been "assured" as I think it was here due to his skill and economic handling. I don't want to diminish the other players either, though. As I said, mzprox was the leading economy until the late-game hammer/food improvement techs and later expansion vaulted 2metra well ahead, and he did get screwed over by "us" (excluding Sparta, sort of, sort of not). Calanthian also did spectacularly in his wars, and I was amazed he not only held on but fought back well against his odds. It's too bad both Cal and mzprox couldn't have been freer and on equal territorial terms with 2metra or even Sparta, given how I at least didn't have to deal with backstabbing neighbors until very late. Ozzy also did very well until his untimely end, though pursuing a pure cultural victory was always a bit odd - I think given how fairly benign the game was for so long, it made it seem a better idea. Still, he's a great teammate and knows the game well and it's too bad he had to leave early as with mzprox.

 

Goodbyes

 

Since this is my last MP game probably, I have to say it was a pleasure working with you, Ozzy, in so many of the games, even if they did sort of get disastrous for us usually.

 

For everyone else, I didn't interact with you as much, but Beta you were a good friend and ally, and Balat you put up a good fight. Good luck in the future to everyone, it's been a great experience playing with you all, here and in the past.

 

I'm done with Civ4 MP now. I just can't put literally years into a single game campaign. It's too much time investment in something that can be won/lost by poor luck, backstabbing, or just being the inferior player. A bit too much stress and involvement and way too much requirement of commitment. It was fun while it lasted, but I always really preferred the RP aspect anyway.

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You have such a nice style in writing things... Only sad thing is I might be reading it for last time :(

 

I will write my thoughts maybe tomorrow being a bit sick this night.

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Checking in a bit late. Busy with other civ stuff. :)

 

Yes - thanks to donald for very solid hosting. :b: It bodes well for the resurrection of the Artemis games.

 

And thank you to Calanthian for the game set up and the map etc. I really enjoyed my relatively small corner of very big world.

 

And thanks to all the players, friends and foes alike. Well played, sportsmanlike game. :b: And congrats to the Eastern Bloc for a well-desrved victory.

 

Take care DNK. Sad to see you go, but understood. :nod: And a great AAR! Thank you! :b:

 

And Cal - sign me up for the next game. I like the map. :) But that means all players start the game with knowledge of the map. Hmmm. How about we advance the start one era and go with a small advanced start for a change. Just a thought.

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Yes, thanks to Donald also for the host. It was very good overall.

 

And thanks for the map, Cal. My only feedback is to make it a bit smaller next time and make late-game resources more balanced and defensible, I think. Otherwise, it was a really good map that did a very good job on the reality and maintaining balance.

 

Oh, and I might be down for much shorter MP games in the future, but definitely not these long, drawn-out diplogames. Anything under 3 months might work. It's not just that I don't want to commit to 1-2 years, but I can't realistically.

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Thanks guys!

 

Enjoyed the game too. And the only one I got to blame for not having chances to win are myself ;)

Starting a war this early to try out these Thracian axemen I made was fun, but from a strategic perspective that didn't make much sense.

 

The moment that Troy attacked while my entire army was on the western side, against Macedon, made sure that it was an uphill struggle from there. Still I am pretty satisfied that I managed to turn things around on Troy, while being constantly outnumbered by at least 40% (and later on in tech).

 

 

Quote:
And thanks for the map, Cal. My only feedback is to make it a bit smaller next time and make late-game resources more balanced and defensible, I think

 

We should have 2 players more ;)

Late game resources where all in the middle between starting positions.

I thing what I expected, but didn't turn out that way in this game was: a fight for the resources on the islands.

 

 

Almost the entire game I paid for all my upgrades (x 1.2) so most fighting was based on my own strength. Falling back in tech (which could not be avoided) made sure that when finally Krez came I still didn't have any tanks, air force etc., so no punch and mobility, which made that war a quick one.

 

PS. This is my first game ever I never built a single boat!

 

 

@DNK: sorry to see you go!

 

 

@Beta: which map do you like the 8-qualizer map or the Greece map ?

We could play either one ;)

 

 

 

Thank you all for this game.

And a special mention for dratboy: one of the best and spirited subs possible.

I'll play a game with you anytime!

Edited by Calanthian

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@Beta: which map do you like the 8-qualizer map or the Greece map ?

We could play either one ;)

 

the one pictured above looks good. Is that the 8-qualizer?

 

 

And a special mention for dratboy: one of the best and spirited subs possible.

I'll play a game with you anytime!

 

I think you will be doing just that in ACtA. :)

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@Cal, not looking for tempsubbing, sorry.

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And a special mention for dratboy: one of the best and spirited subs possible.

I'll play a game with you anytime!

 

Thanks Cal! You were a great ally and your recounting of the Battle in the Woods deserves some kind of war correspondance award! :D

 

I'll briefly discuss my experience upon taking over:

 

Loved the huge map and complicated terrain, and worked my butt off building a navy to have fun in the water, only to see Krez destroy it in one turn. I suppose we all have that gripe in one fashion or another. :lol:

 

I inherited a mighty fine specialist economy (complete with profitable holy shrine and statue of liberty!) and a great big army. The Dalmnation Invasion was fun, although I was so new to the site that I had no idea who any of you were. My last instructions upon taking over was that Beta and Macedon had agreed to destroy Dalmnation and split his empire. My initial attempts to contact Beta went unanswered, so I mistakenly convinced myself that Beta had aligned himself with Athens and Sparta to come at me, in classic "noob bashing fun". This had long term consequences - It took some time and persuading to convince me that this was not the case, time that we could have spent integrating our strategies. oh well.

 

Fortunately, Krez saved the day by demanding I stop helping out Cal, which to a gung-ho noob with nothing to lose, was tantamount to a declaration of war. I immediatley switched my focus onto Krez and started spying like crazy (although I never could convert you to Greek polytheism, Krez! I tried and tried and tried! :lol: ) When Sparta put out Western alliance feelers, I was more than happy to join up at this point, but as DNK has pointed out, it was probably too late by then. But we tried! No one will say we didn't! Beta had also returned from his radio silence period and he was such a great neighbour that I kinda felt bad for all the distrust I had previously felt. Well, paranoia is part of the game, I suppose.

 

I thought I did ok as a pivot empire, lending a hand here and there as needed and making sure my allies had the resources and backup that they required, but our Athens invasion was a disaster! As happy as I was with maintaining a cohesive defense against Krez in the east, I just wasn't able to really strike at Athens with any kind of tactical intelligence. Just your average big stack marching one tile at a time closer and closer to the first city and getting absolutely hammered by planes the entire time. Thinking back, I wish I had been a bit more unpredictable and also brought my destroyers down, especially considering they were absolutely useless to me in the end. Well, dick76 enjoyed many sweet victories at my expense, and they were well deserved. I'm glad you played along with the whole "kidnapped athenian philosophers/scientists" theme. That was jolly good fun.

 

Lastly, I never had enough machine guns.

 

Thanks for the highly reliable hosting services, Donald! and great game everyone! Gladly play with or against anyone here again, Even you Dick76, although I now find myself rooting against Athenians in fiction and movies. I am now playing in The Med and find myself near the bottom score-wise, so I have work to do! Unfortunately, I'll only be able to play in one game at a time for awhile, but if anyone needs a temp sub (stress the TEMP) give me a shout!

 

Peace,

Dratboy

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Yep, the Battle of the Woods. ( http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showthread.php?6282-WPC-Diplo-quot-Gods-and-Heroes-quot-Story-Thread-1-after-restart/page6)

Those were the glory days!

 

 

@Beta: yes that is the 8-qualizer map.

Dratboy, 2metra, and all others let me know if you are interested to play it!

In my humble opinion it is a better map as this one, which you liked ;)

Edited by Calanthian

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Whoa! I missed alot... Busy with other Civ stuff.

 

Thanks Donald for hosting the game!:D I am glad I got a chance to participate.

 

To any interested in joining another diplogame click herehttp://apolyton.net/showthread.php/198931-Domination-of-Barbarians-Diplo-Game-Organization-Thread Domination of Barbarians has space for players. PM me here or on Apolyton for details.

 

@ DNK - I share your concern about RP games turning into elimination games. If you ever do decide to permanently join DoB, I will keep up the focus on RP/diplo. Just a thought. I also hate to see you go :(

 

Thanks to Calanthian for all your work setting up the game and the Map. I wasn't here at the start, but I did enjoy your work.

Edited by Sommerswerd

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I'll consider DoB if it's really going to be RP-heavy. I don't want to commit yet, just cause I've done that once before ;)

 

What era are you in, and what's the speed? I would want to join somewhere closer to the end of the game, with under 6 months to go. For a good RP game, that would be my limit to time commitment.

 

In general, you guys might want to consider doing shorter form MP games here (and Apolyton). I'm probably not the only one who looks at a new game and says, "do I REALLY want to sink 1.5 years into this map and setup?" Something like a Classical/Medieval start on Quick speed (as much as I dislike it for rapid obsolescence) would make joining a lot easier of a decision. Slogging through 50-150 turns of "enter" at the start isn't appealing either as it's a few months, and a late period start would help to reduce that issue as well. Really, the player base is slowly diminishing, and reducing commitment might keep interest up for people who want to play but not THAT much.

Edited by DNK

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Your answer may be a game with ADVANCED START of about 6000 points.

It gets your empire a real boost and you can go right into the action.

I played that before and it worked very well.

 

(but you need to do that with players of similar skill)

 

Here is the situation in turn 3 of that game..

 

turn3advstart60001.jpg

 

turn3advstart6000tech.jpg

Edited by Calanthian

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I'll consider DoB if it's really going to be RP-heavy. I don't want to commit yet, just cause I've done that once before ;)

 

What era are you in, and what's the speed? I would want to join somewhere closer to the end of the game, with under 6 months to go. For a good RP game, that would be my limit to time commitment.

@ DNK - Yes the game thus far has been RP heavy and I intend to keep it so (no switching to elimmination), but I doubt the game will be over in 6 months. We don't do pauses or reloads generally and the timer is at 17 hrs per turn, Marathon speed as you know.

 

At this point most Teams are in the Classical era techwise I believe, its about 500 AD, but there has been an unexpected (and unintended TBH) twist. Some of the Civs have discovered a weakness in the Map (my fault) that has brought on the age of Discovery. So now is a great time to get in because there is an early rush to settle the new world through the "Mystical Crossing of Moses"

 

If you want to commit for 6 months DNK and see how it goes that's fine by me. I always love to read your RP:D

 

@ Cal - Yea Advanced start was something I considered for this game given the speed, but decided against it because I had no experience with it and wasn't sure how it would work out. Good idea for next game though...

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Yeah it was fun, I think his role in the saga of the Athenian scholars. but I must admit I was better to destroy the Macedonian army that tried to invade Athens. I hope to meet again in pitbosses. regards

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Well, on advanced starts, yeah, you need fairly equal skills. You get a fairly decent setup on a Medieval start in terms of units, I'm not sure if advanced starts are necessary then.

 

Sommers, I will consider it.

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