Rhoth

WPC Civ4 Diplogame set-up thread

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Greetings all. As some of you know from receiving PMs Beta and I would like to get a Civ4 diplogame going at WPC. What is a diplogame you ask? I'll get to that in a later post. Most of the information comes directly from posts by Robert Plomp and OzzyKP on Apolyton as they have set up many different diplogames there over the years. The information comes from this subforum and specifically this thread

 

The following quote kind of sums up diplogames:

A Diplomacy Game is a game in which all players lead their civilization as if they're leading a real nation. It's not a game but reality. Leaders can be tyrants, democrats, noble kings, fascistic, etc. and the civs are being played according to the role they take. During the game civs can get new leaders, change directions and style. Alliances can be formed and broken.

Some leaders care for their people, others don't. Key is that the players try to stick their civ to a certain role. A role which can change throughout the game b/c of revolutions, marriages, coups, evil sons, plagues, etc.

Players are free to develop this concept to their own ideas.

Diplomacy means not that war is prohibited. War is very welcome, but stick to your role. Have a valid reason why a modern democratic nation would invade another modern democratic nation. (there's always a reason! Just make it up if needed.)

 

Another purpose of the game is to keep it interesting for everybody. Nations won't be annihilated or broken in such a way that the fun is gone for a player. On the other hand, players must be willing to compromise when losing a war and be willing to accept terms of their enemy.

Small nations can still be important to the game! Make things interesting, develop stories and roles.

 

Here is a link to a Diplogame FAQ at Apolyton. It is a little old and talks about Civ2, etc., but some of the concepts are still sound.

 

I have spoken to Solver and he has agreed to make WPC resources available to us including extra logins so everyone can play anonymously. Part of the fun of the diplogame is that you don't know exactly who your ally or your enemy is IRL. A separate forum might also be a possibility, but I don't know if it is really necessary.

 

It is my intention to start around the end of June or beginning of July if we can get enough people ready and get the map settings defined. If we get enough interest, and I will probably hit up the diplogame players at Apolyton to see if any are interested in joining this game too, then we can play a huge map. Remember the goal of this type of game isn't necessarily to be the only player left standing so a huge map with a lot of players means that there is a lot of room for roleplaying and politics and war, and not a slog through to kill everyone.

 

Everyone is welcome to play though, even if you weren't already contacted via PM (that just means I don't know you all that well yet). Just post in the thread that you are interested in playing.

 

Interested members:

Rhothaerill

Beta

RobWorham

Kloreep

Viking

fed1943

Harovan

andydog

Bantams

DNK

Donald/Zoid partnership

St Jon

 

Interested, but can't start yet (possibly will be a permasub if someone bails on the game):

Rusty Edge

n35t0r

 

Not interested now, but maybe we can twist their arms down the line when they see this is a fun game:

Wittlich

Geomodder

 

 

Offered to be impartial judge:

Nugog

 

Server: civ4.canonno.com

Edited by donald23
Added server address.

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Dictionary of Terms:

 

- Diplomacy Game

A Diplomacy Game is a game in which all players lead their civilization as if they're leading a real nation. It's not a game but reality. Leaders can be tyrants, democrats, noble kings, fascistic, etc. and the civs are being played according to the role they take. During the game civs can get new leaders, change directions and style. Alliances can be formed and broken.

Some leaders care for their people, others don't. Key is that the players try to stick their civ to a certain role. A role which can change throughout the game b/c of revolutions, marriages, coups, evil sons, plagues, etc.

Players are free to develop this concept to their own ideas.

Diplomacy means not that war is prohibited. War is very welcome, but stick to your role. Have a valid reason why a modern democratic nation would invade another modern democratic nation. (there's always a reason! Just make it up if needed.)

 

Another purpose of the game is to keep it interesting for everybody. Nations won't be annihilated or broken in such a way that the fun is gone for a player. On the other hand, players must be willing to compromise when losing a war and be willing to accept terms of their enemy.

Small nations can still be important to the game! Make things interesting, develop stories and roles.

 

- Diplo Victory

Not the in-game score determines the winner of the game, the so-called "Diplo Score" does.

The Diplo Score is calculated in a still to be determined manner for this game. Key is that votes on different categories will be used to determine the winner.

 

- Pitboss

A pitboss game is being hosted by a pitboss server.

The pitboss server is available 24/7, players can login to this server every time they want to play their turn. The pitboss server will automatically advance to the next turn when a certain amount of time has passed.

 

- In Game (IG) / In Character (IC)

Posts / messages a player posts / spreads in which he's acting as a game character and sticks to his role.

 

- Out of Character (OOC)

Posts / messages a player posts / spreads in which he's not acting as a game character but discuss organization or technical game related issues. Player A may be enemies with Player B In-Character and acts like that In-Character, but ie. supports a suggestion of Player B Out of Character.

- Game Administrator

The person who organizes the game. He calls for the votes, starts the game threads, etc.

He's by default also the conflict handler.

- Game Host

The person who hosts the Pitboss Server.

 

- Story Thread

A dedicated thread created by the Game Host for story telling and diplomacy purposes. Only IG posts can be made here.

 

- Organization Thread

A dedicated thread created by the Game Host for game organization purposes. Only OOC posts can be made here

 

- Pause

Sometimes the game must be temporarily stopped because of OOC reasons. The hosts then saves the game and ends it till the organizational (OOC) issues are being dealt with.

 

- Double Move

Civilization is a turn-based game, like ie. chess. Players play their turn in a certain order. First Player A, then Player B, etc.

Because of the nature of a multiplayer-pitboss game, all players are able to login whenever they want. This means that the turn order will likely be broken during the game

When a certain player plays twice in a row without another player playing his turn in between, it's been called a double move.

An example: During Turn 80 Player A plays first, Player B logs in to the game 3 hours later and plays his turn. Then the game proceeds to turn 81, Player B logs in first and plays his turn. Now Player B has played 2 turns in a row without Player A playing in between. This is being called a "Double Move"

 

Normally this is not a problem, but during wartime the warring parties must define a set order of play. A would always go first, then B, etc.

 

- Sub

When John is the player of the Americans and Bill takes over from him, then Bill is a sub

 

- Temporary Sub (temp sub)

When someone only temporarily subs for a player this is called a temp sub. A temp sub may be needed when a player is leaving on vacation, is sick, etc. The idea is that the temp-sub will only play a certain civ for a limited amount of time. A temp sub will always play the game like the official player would play it. (or at least try to)

 

- permanent sub (perm sub)

When a player quits the game a perm sub is being looked for to take the game over permanently. Factually a perm sub is being called the new player when he's found and took over.

 

- Reload

When there's a reason (ie. rule being broken, technical problem, etc.) the game will be reloaded.

Every turn the pitboss server will automatically save the game.

 

- Judge

A judge is someone who makes a (ooc) decision once the involved parties in a (ooc) conflict can't agree upon a solution.

 

- Fight

Games that last as long as diplomacy games often cause 'fights' among players.

A fight erupts when an ooc conflict arises about rules or unbalanced/unfair gaming by others.

Fights are no good for the game but are unfortunately reality in games like this.

Usually a fight can be avoided if both parties are willing to be cooperative or want to compromise, if players admit their mistakes. Clear rules and sometimes the involvement of judges must help to avoid/end fights.

 

- Cold Turkey Time

Every time a civ loses much terrain, is being invaded, is being backstabbed, faces ig troubles, the player of that civ needs some time to accept these new facts. For some this time is short, for others 1 or 2 days.

During this time the player will develop conspiracy theories that are both entertaining to others but very disturbing for the player itself. The player will believe rules have been broken, it's all unfair and unbalanced, and may accuse other players from foul play or cheating.

The Cold Turkey Time is needed to give a player some time to grab himself together and accept the new facts.

This happens to everybody, we just have to learn to live with that.

If such a cold turkey time pops up the game will be paused and the involved player will read this Cold Turkey Time explanation once again to understand that he's not the first who feels this way. Hopefully that'll help him to understand that there are most probably no ooc conspiracies. He'll then move on and play the ig conflict in an ig matter.

 

- Measured war

A Civ Diplo Game has to balance two factors in war.

1. This is Civ - Warmongering, conquest and domination is a perfectly acceptable and honorable way to play. There is no intention that Diplo games need to be 'builder orientated' (though that is just as acceptable a strategy too).

 

2. This is Diplo - No civilization should be crippled with the result that the game stops being fun for the player involved. This means that there is a balance to be struck. War is costly for the aggressor, building up forces while other nations race ahead, so the victor should be able to make real gains from the war. But if they gain too much, the loser may be crippled. Its impossible to make a hard and fast rule out of this, because that can just be exploited (e.g. a loser refusing to make a reasonable peace because 'the rule' will then kick in and save them). But as a guide, a 25% loss is an appropriate threshold (loss being an overall measure, not just a city count - losing 3 tiny fringe cities may be much less of a loss than 1 major city). More than this may well be crippling the loser. But a loss/gain up to this probably is appropriate benefit for the victor. Again this can't be a rule - taking a small bite out of a neighbor every ten turns will cripple them, but having won a war against a neighbor a millennium ago doesn't mean you can't fight with them again.

 

This concept of measured war is enforced in rule 7.

Edited by Rhoth

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Game rules:

 

01. Anonymous Play

a. All players will receive an anonymous account (like "Greece (DoE)"), which they will use for diplomacy (post and PM) and story telling (posts). The players behind the civs won't be revealed during the game. When players login to the game they must write down an anonymous name to keep their true identity hidden.

 

b. It is not allowed to reveal anybody's anonymous identity or to speak about these identities in private or public. During the game people may get more and more clues, but still keep their mouth shut.

 

c. Both in IC threads/posts and OOC threads/posts players will only use their Anonymous ID.

The only exception to the rule is when there's a vote on a gamerule or game mechanism. Then players will use their normal login to vote.

 

d. An extra anonymous general ID will be created which can be used by all players to send a message to the game administrator for administrative purposes, like "extend the turn timer, next turn there will be war"

 

e. The game administrator will use his normal ID for game administration purposes.

 

02. Rule Breaking

When rules are being broken the game will be reloaded. The host can reload immediately when a breaking of a rule is obvious. If it's not obvious to everyone the game will be paused (again) and conflict handling will be effectuated.

 

03. Wartime Double Moves

a. Civilizations that are at war have to observe the turn order. The turn order is set during the first turn of the war. If the invaded party played first in the turn before the war started, then the aggressor must let him play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him.

 

b. Players are free to agree on a new turn order if all involved parties agree and this new turn order is published in the organization thread and all involved parties publish their agreement there as well.

 

c. The host will pause the game if the turn is about to advance in about 2 hours while any player involved did not play his turn.

 

d. During war all players must always play their turn. If it takes a player more then 24 hours the game administrator will look for a temp sub.

 

e. If player A wants to declare war on player B while B did not play the turn before (or was first in the turn order the turn before), then player B is first in the turn order.

If B still did not play 1 hour before the turn ends, player A becomes first in the turn order. The game administrator will pause the game when A is done.

 

04. City Trades

a. City trades are allowed. Receiving a city back (from anybody) that you traded away in the past 50 turns is NOT allowed, unless requested in the org thread and nobody objects for ooc reasons within 48h.

 

b. Trading cities during wartime with anybody but your enemy is not allowed unless all your enemies agree.

 

05. Subbing

a. Subs will always put '(sub)' behind their name when they login to the game. (ie. 'Emperor Augustus (sub)')

 

b. temp subbing for allies is allowed. Temp subbing, for civs that lost their player completely till a perm sub has been found, is only allowed for civs that are not closely involved with the civ they wil sub for. (no neighbors, no enemies, no allies).

 

c. If a civ has not been played for 10 turns in a row or 20 out of 25 turns, a a perm sub will be looked for. Civs like this won't be annihilated.

 

06. Civs will never be annihilated.

 

07. Measured War Rule

a. When 51% of the players for ooc-reasons think that a war should end then it must end. This to avoid that civs will be crippled too much by a war. The terms of the end of war are in such a case: immediate peace for 50 turns. It is advised for both parties to agree on the best possible terms for peace before this happens.

 

b. Such an end of war must be organized in the org thread. (ie. players must announce their opinion regarding the end of a war in the org thread).

 

Reasons for such an end-of-war vote are only OOC! Not IG (like: my allie is losing this important city)

(check dictionary of terms for the meaning of 'measured war')

Debates/votes about this will always happen with the normal logins, not the anonymous id's!

 

08. IC actions should not be discussed OOC

With the exception of Rule 7

The Game administrator will delete ooc-discussions from the threads.

Positive one-line comments are allowed. (ie.: "Good story Korea" or "Well played war Spain!")

 

09. Contacting the Game Administrator

The game administrator will give his cellphone number to all players so that everybody can send him a text message when problems arise and no internet connection is available. Players will always inform the host, either by PM, e-mail or telephone about 'real live' events that may affect the game.

 

10. Rule Change Procedure

a. When the game has started rules can only be changed if 66% of the players that vote within 48 hours after the rule change has proposed agree. (excluding abstaining voters).

 

b. A vote change must always be announced in the org thread an by a PM to all players anonymous accounts. The game administrator organizes rule change procedures.

Edited by Rhoth

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Diplo Score Mechanism:

 

After every month all players are invited to vote on the stories and role playing of all players.

Using a special web application a total of 20 'points' can be assigned, with a max of 5 points per player.

 

-----------

The 2 categories:

- Story Telling

Story telling is about how a player tells the story of his civilization and how he communicates with other leaders. How he handles his characters, shows the relation between story and in-game actions, explains the behavior of his civ, includes graphics and images, is able to entertain it's readers, etc.

 

A great part of the fun of a diplo game is the creation of an amazing story thread. This contains everything from national epics to diplomacy, newspaper articles to lies, text, screenshots and images. A player gets votes for storytelling for their contribution to the story thread. There are no rules as to what marks out a good contribution - we all have different tastes - what is too much detail for one person, may be exactly what another person values, some people will give more votes to one brilliant piece than to someone who produces lots of mediocre material, someone else will value quantity more. When voting its simple - give people votes if you personally enjoy their contributions.

 

- Role Playing

Role Playing is about how the in-game actions and the tone of his messages reflect the role of the player. Is the fascist dictator really playing as a fascist? Does it make sense that the fanatic orthodox jewish leader has an alliance with the fanatic orthodox buddhist leader? Is the peaceful friendly leader really friendly and peaceful to his neighbors? In short: do the actions of a player compare to the story role he assigned to himself.

 

The definition of a diplo game is "A Diplomacy Game is a game in which all players lead their civilization as if they're leading a real nation". Under 'role-playing' people are given votes for the degree to which they do this. Is there a consistency and believability about the actions of that civ - its in-game actions, its diplomacy, what it says about itself. What nature a civ has is up to the player to decide and to evolve as the game progresses - but they get votes for the believability and consistency of this, and the interest it gives to the game. If you act as if you are 'playing a game', you won't get many votes; but if you can give the rest of us the impression your nation actually exists, you deserve to get lots.

-----------

 

Per month all points a player receives in both categories will be calculated.

Based on this a score list will be created per category.

The #1 on that score list will receive X scorepoints. (X = the number of civs in the game). The #2 will receive X-1, etc.

 

 

Every civ assigns his points in the first week of the month.

If a civ fails to assign his points, 5 points per category will be subtracted.

 

Players will rate OOC! Not based on IG situations!

Thus the player of China may be at war with the player of Russia but still gives him a 7 rating b/c of the way his enemy plays this war! Players rate based on reasons, not on score positions. (no political rating).

 

The ratings will remain anonymous till the game is over.

It's up to the players to showcase their achievements to gain good ratings.

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All right that should be it for the basic rules. Now we can start work on map settings.

 

Proposed Game settings:

 

- Map: to be determined

- Players: to be determined

- Game speed: normal or epic

- Normal Barbarians

- Huts All over the World

- Random Events: yes or no

- Turn timer: 36 or 48 hours, The first turn will last for 48 hours

- Choose religions

- no tech trading

- no vassal states

- Mods: to be determined

 

The other game that Beta and I play in at Apolyton have two interesting things going on for the map. One, it is a real world map. Second it has a mod that allows for extra ocean travel but restricts coastal travel a bit. It also allows for less costs for overseas colonies, and it restricts corporations a bit (don't ask me why for that part).

 

The players were ranked in tiers based on player capability with the top tier occupying European nations, the second tier occupying the area surrounding Europe such as russia, turkey, Egypt, etc. Third tier was Asia and south Africa, and Fourth tier was North and South America.

 

I at first thought that real world maps were the status quo for diplogames based on what I read in the FAQ that I linked above, but Beta assures me this is the first real world diplogame he has played in. So we can go with a randomly generated map if we want.

 

Game speed: normal or epic. I prefer normal, but epic isn't a bad option either, especially with the no tech trading. You really would be getting your money's worth out of units instead of, for example, completely skipping over musketeers for a rush to rifling.

 

Regarding the turn timer I think 36 hours is actually a good time. It allows for a full day and a half to play the turn. If 48 hours is preferred though that is fine too. The other game runs on a 28 hour timer right now.

 

No tech trading. This certainly makes for an interesting time as allies have to try to come up with ways to work around certain problems. Plus if we end up having a lot of people in the game then the tech rate if trades were allowed would be astronomical. A lot of PBEMs of late have been using the no tech brokering option to keep the tech rate down, though you can still get around that with careful attention to allies. This takes it an interesting step further.

 

Anyway, start recommending map settings. Is there interest in a real world map or some other type of scenario? If not do we want to go with pangaea or continents or medium/small or some other type? For the most part I usually think the mid level settings for climate and sea level are fine, though if we have a lot of people we have to go with huge map and low sea level. We'll see.

Edited by Rhoth

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Civ leaders

 

Everyone will have an anonymous login in order to post their roleplaying, etc. but that does not necessarily mean that we need to go with random generation of the leaders. Sure we can if that is preferred, but I'm not necessarily for that. The last game where random leaders were generated I received probably my least favorite leader in the game.

 

I'm thinking to use the same technique we used for the demogame a while back: everyone who is interested would PM me with their top 5 choices for nation (and remember, you want it as much for roleplaying purposes as anything so choose your civ based on something you might want to roleplay). The nations would then be assigned, and any ties would be broken so that everyone who wants a specific leader has a shot to get him/her.

 

If an earth map is the choice we could work out a tier system like the one I was talking about above.

Edited by Rhoth

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Hosting and anonymous logins:

 

I haven't spoken with him about since he is on vacation at the moment, but I would like to see if donald23 can host. He has been testing things out for a large game, and that sounds perfect to me if he is willing. He would also have to set this up on the Play Your Turn tracker website so that everyone can track the game if they wish, especially useful for wartime when players have an agreement about who will be playing first.

 

Once we have all the map settings decided then I will be asking Solver (or someone else if he wants to play or doesn't have time to do this) to help with the map. If it is a randomly generated map I'd like him to take a look at the map and make sure that there aren't any obviously bad starts (such as a nation surrounded by water on three sides and desert on the fourth and all the good resources a decent distance from the capital). That doesn't mean he would be balancing out all the starts so that everyone has access to iron, everyone has access to horses, etc. just that he would be making sure there aren't any pathetic starts.

 

Once we have all of the nations decided, I will be creating some gmail accounts so that we can link the anonymous logins to the accounts (or if Solver has a way to create an account without needing a new email account then that is even better). Once all the nations are assigned then the map overseer would be giving out the passwords for the new anonymous logins to each player.

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Proposed Game settings:

 

- Map: to be determined

- Players: ##

- Game speed: normal or epic

- Normal Barbarians

- Huts All over the World

- No Random Events

- Turn timer: 36 or 48 hours, The first turn will last for 48 hours

- Choose religions

- no tech trading

- no vassal states

- Mods: to be determined

 

 

  • Any reason for the lack of random events? I would have thought they'd add to the story telling flavour somewhat.
  • I think 48 hour turns might increase the chances of more and better narration although 36 hours would help the game flow better, especially if we played at epic.
  • I'd prefer no mods, let's keep it as the game we all know and love.
  • I'd be up for as much randomization as possible. Not knowing what map script we are on would make a far more interesting game. having to play the hand dealt you is much more interesting to me personally.
  • I'm for as little rules as possible. We've proved on numerous occasions here at WPC that we are all an adult bunch and we're just playing a game to chill out in our spare time.

 

Ultimately, I'm easy with any settings that facilitate as many players as possible. Is it possible to combine this with a regular pitboss game? i.e. those that want to roleplay and diplo game can, those that just want to play a normal game can? That's the only way I can see to get a huge game going, short of enlisting from other forums, which hasn't always gone down too well in the past......

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  • Any reason for the lack of random events? I would have thought they'd add to the story telling flavour somewhat.

 

No, not really. The other game I'm playing in doesn't have them, though I tend to like them. And the story telling bit would be good.

 

Ultimately, I'm easy with any settings that facilitate as many players as possible. Is it possible to combine this with a regular pitboss game? i.e. those that want to roleplay and diplo game can, those that just want to play a normal game can? That's the only way I can see to get a huge game going, short of enlisting from other forums, which hasn't always gone down too well in the past......

 

Yeah that's fine too. Some of the diplogamers don't roleplay too much either. In the other game I took over for a player who apparently didn't do much roleplaying at all. Some do more than others. There is no set minimum of role playing you have to do. And if you do roelplay it's not like you have to post something after every turn either. I'd still want it to be anonymous though, for those who do want to roleplay, plus because it's fun. :)

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What I like about the Diplogame on the other site is, that it's set up less competitive, that it plays on a world map and that the origins of religions are about right. Gives the game a feeling of authenticity. I'm all for a similar game setup, and even if the majority is for a random map, I'd like to see religions to be predetermined by civs. I'm not very fond of muslim Aztecs and Buddistic Zulus. Feels not right in a game that is mostly about roleplaying.

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Not one for writting epic storylines detailing moves and what not but I am interested played in a few of these friday night reloaded diplo games in the past with Nolan/condor but they were always late night usa time games so this might be better for me :)

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MAYBE A WILD SUGGESTION

 

A possibility might be to combine the upcoming DoF game (Destruction of Foes) at Apolyton with this game: then we would have somewhere between 16 and 20 players..

(there will be some players who subscribed for both games I guess..)..

Edited by Calanthian

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MAYBE A WILD SUGGESTION

 

A possibility might be to combine the upcoming DoF game (Destruction of Foes) at Apolyton with this game: then we would have somewhere between 16 and 20 players..

(there will be some players who subscribed for both games I guess..)..

 

I took a look at that one and it seemed like it was set up to be called diplogame light, pretty much like a standard pitboss game. I was trying to get a full diplogame going, like Destiny of Empires.

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Inca (DoE) checking in.

 

I also don't want to create yet another Med map so we can fit 20+ players on it, so I don't think that's a good idea, Calanthian.

 

A good reason to keep random events off is that it adds an extra variable into the game that can be a bit unbalancing. The same is the reason that huts are usually turned off, and sometimes even barbs.

 

That said, I really don't like huts in MP games (or SP games). It can be pretty unfair when you get maps/XP/barbs and your neighbor pops 2 free techs and 150G. They can be really unbalanced, I'm not sure why they are in the game (or in DoE for that matter).

 

Honestly, there's no way I would play a 48H turn timer game. It will last 2years+ at that rate if it's epic. The 26H timers we have in DoE right now are a bit of a pain, and it's the Industrial Era... Really suggest you guys do what we did in DoE and set it at 8H for the first 100 turns, then move it up to 16H for the next 100, and then finally settle at 24H. It's nice to think that 2 day timers will help story telling, but they're more likely to kill interest and thereby hurt it.

 

Also, vote for epic speed and a real world map (there are a ton on CF, as I'm sure you're all aware, and one could be tweaked for MP).

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Regarding the turn timer, in most of the Pitboss games I've been a part of the turn timer has been set at 36 hours, but in practice it rarely hits that. Most of the time, the turn is finished within about 18-24 hours, sometimes less. It is set longer in case someone has some type of extenuating circumstances and can't get to the game in time.

 

8 hours is, for me at least, an impossibility. I have to sleep sometimes. :)

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Good point Rhoth, 36 hours sounds like the way to go. In reality we'll probably turn thinks around in 24, but an extra 12 doesn't hurt in time of need.

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And in DoE we run out the 26H turn time almost all the time, although it's plenty of time until we have a complicated mid-game war (just some uninvolved players don't play or forget to hit enter or something). With 14 or 18 players, someone's always going to forget enter or not log on just to hit enter because it's the 12th turn and there's no point in spending 10 minutes on it.

 

There is no point in having 36H turns in the early game unless someone gets into a war or the barbs are particularly brutal, and even then 24H is more than enough.

 

You can queue builds and actions and skip 5 turns at a time and lose nothing. Worker>irrigate (5T), build archer (7T), hit enter, hit enter, hit enter, hit enter, hit enter...

 

There's 32H right there with 8H timers, or over 1 week with a 36H timer...

 

Again, as much as I like diplo gaming, I don't want to sign on to a 2-3 year game where it's likely a lot of players will lose interest a couple months in and I'm going to have to wait 6 months just to see the Classical Era.

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Remember, you can adjust the timer at any point in the game. So you can keep the timer at 8 or 12 hours, then push it up to 24 if there's a war or someone needs it.

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In the early game there's not much happening, you can usually give cities and workers orders in advance, give explorers go-to orders and not log in for 2-3 turns and nothing negative will happen. 8 hours seems a bit much, but 12 hours for the first, say, 150 or so turns sounds fine.

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Some people will find 12 hours difficult with work and commutes etc.

 

I can offer as a non player if people know they are going to setup ayto moves etc, to monitir the tracker log in as them and hit end turn, if that helps.

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Re: Proposed settings - why no vassal states? That seems like an excellent option for an RP game in which we don't want civs eliminated.

I do like Epic as well, but that seems like a bit much for a game that's already going to be so large. I do like the idea that this would actually finish one day. ;) But what the heck - if other people like and think we can do Epic, I could jump on board that.

No Tech Trading sounds interesting indeed. Commerce itself can still be traded with Gold, right? So what's being eliminated is the free commerce generated by tech trades. :b:

I can't say I any mods I want to put forth, but I'm willing to hear of any suggestions others have.

 

I agree that 36 hours sounds like a good clock. 24 in the beginning I could see. Or yes, even 12 for the first 30 turns or so, though I also like Nugog's offer of ending turns for people if they've indicated everything's pre-set. But I don't think we should take too long to move to 36.

Don't get me wrong, I agree this game will be an unfortunate piece of slog if it actually hits 36 regularly, but I don't think a tighter turn timer is going to solve anything. It can only lead to one of two things: either turns will indeed be skipped, or it will be more hassle for the admin in making extensions to avoid those skips.

If we really think it's going to be a problem, then frankly, we need more drastic measures than just the turn timer: If someone is holding the game up regularly, then rather than punishing their civ and skipping them, I think Nugog should look at replacing the laggard.

 

For the map, a Real World one does sound interesting. I do wonder what it would do to the game to be in any non-Pangea environment, though, since that will keep the continents isolated for some time. How's the Americas vs. Rest Of World split turning out in your Earth-map diplogame? Or is it too early to tell?

 

 

 

A few things Re: rules on the start of a war. First, if I read the rules correctly, if Greece is going to invade Korea on Turn 166, and Korea moves first on Turn 165, Greece must wait until Korea takes Turn 166 before declaring war? That seems a bit odd to me. If Greece is okay with Korea reacting right then on Turn 166, why not let Greece move first if it can and wants? Or if Greece moves first on Turn 165, must it then get the war declaration & movement in before Korea's turn on 166?

 

Also, regarding time extension for war: Good idea, but won't that create some interesting OOC information? If I see the turn timer get extended, I'm going to be eyeing my borders...

 

d. An extra anonymous general ID will be created which can be used by all players to send a message to the game administrator for administrative purposes, like "extend the turn timer, next turn there will be war"

 

If the admin already knows players' real identities, I'm not sure why this is necessary?

 

Once we have all of the nations decided, I will be creating some gmail accounts so that we can link the anonymous logins to the accounts (or if Solver has a way to create an account without needing a new email account then that is even better). Once all the nations are assigned then the map overseer would be giving out the passwords for the new anonymous logins to each player.

 

I believe you can set your e-mail to be private, so I'm not sure if a gmail account per player is needed. Though, having a dedicated e-mail would certainly help with conducting private diplo off-site, if that was desired, without breaking the anonymity rule.

 

Ultimately, I'm easy with any settings that facilitate as many players as possible. Is it possible to combine this with a regular pitboss game? i.e. those that want to roleplay and diplo game can, those that just want to play a normal game can? That's the only way I can see to get a huge game going, short of enlisting from other forums, which hasn't always gone down too well in the past......

 

I would think the main thing is being willing to follow the rules. Particularly the ones regarding war, since those are the heaviest-handed/the biggest departure from a regular game.

 

Otherwise, what are people gonna do if you aren't keeping them updated on your Senate's kerfluffles? Not vote for you? :)

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Another rules niggle: If a player is permasubbed, can the departing player reveal who they were? Or do they have to maintain anonymity even once they've left the game and someone else is controlling their civ?

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Re: Proposed settings - why no vassal states? That seems like an excellent option for an RP game in which we don't want civs eliminated.

I do like Epic as well, but that seems like a bit much for a game that's already going to be so large. I do like the idea that this would actually finish one day. ;) But what the heck - if other people like and think we can do Epic, I could jump on board that.

No Tech Trading sounds interesting indeed. Commerce itself can still be traded with Gold, right? So what's being eliminated is the free commerce generated by tech trades. :b:

I can't say I any mods I want to put forth, but I'm willing to hear of any suggestions others have.

 

Re: vassal states, I again have no reason why not other than that was they way it was done with the game I'm playing at Poly. If people want them it's fine with me.

 

Re: epic vs. normal I'm more in favor of normal. Epic games smack a bit more of Civ5 building times to me. ;)

 

The whole no tech trading thing seems very interesting in the current diplogame I'm playing. Very strategic. I don't think we've tried it at WPC yet so I'm excited about it. :)

 

I agree that 36 hours sounds like a good clock. 24 in the beginning I could see. Or yes, even 12 for the first 30 turns or so, though I also like Nugog's offer of ending turns for people if they've indicated everything's pre-set. But I don't think we should take too long to move to 36.

Don't get me wrong, I agree this game will be an unfortunate piece of slog if it actually hits 36 regularly, but I don't think a tighter turn timer is going to solve anything. It can only lead to one of two things: either turns will indeed be skipped, or it will be more hassle for the admin in making extensions to avoid those skips.

If we really think it's going to be a problem, then frankly, we need more drastic measures than just the turn timer: If someone is holding the game up regularly, then rather than punishing their civ and skipping them, I think Nugog should look at replacing the laggard.

 

I could probably handle a 12 hour turn timer for the first 30-50 turns if others are on board with that. Especially with Nugog offering his "end turn" services. :) After that we can discuss 24 or 36. If everyone feels fine with 24 we can go with that. I don't mind quick turnarounds. Once he get back Beta will tell you I've been bugging him daily to play his TRSB turns since that is one of my favorite games right now. :D

 

Also, Zoid is interested in the game but can't start for a few months so he is probably up for being one of the first permasubs once his busy time slows down.

 

For the map, a Real World one does sound interesting. I do wonder what it would do to the game to be in any non-Pangea environment, though, since that will keep the continents isolated for some time. How's the Americas vs. Rest Of World split turning out in your Earth-map diplogame? Or is it too early to tell?

 

Re: America vs. rest of the world, for the American states DNK can probably answer that better since he is playing one of them in the other game.

 

A few things Re: rules on the start of a war. First, if I read the rules correctly, if Greece is going to invade Korea on Turn 166, and Korea moves first on Turn 165, Greece must wait until Korea takes Turn 166 before declaring war? That seems a bit odd to me. If Greece is okay with Korea reacting right then on Turn 166, why not let Greece move first if it can and wants? Or if Greece moves first on Turn 165, must it then get the war declaration & movement in before Korea's turn on 166?

 

Also, regarding time extension for war: Good idea, but won't that create some interesting OOC information? If I see the turn timer get extended, I'm going to be eyeing my borders...

 

The intention I think was that once war has started the players figure out a turn order and then stick to it. Before then, it is fine to declare war, though in a diplogame it is considered "good manners" to at least give a little bit of warning first and not do a sneak attack...unless that is the whole point of your roleplaying, etc. The game is competitive, but not necessarily as cutthroat as, say, "I've grown more powerful than my neighbor, now I can attack him and take his lands."

 

 

If the admin already knows players' real identities, I'm not sure why this is necessary?

 

I believe you can set your e-mail to be private, so I'm not sure if a gmail account per player is needed. Though, having a dedicated e-mail would certainly help with conducting private diplo off-site, if that was desired, without breaking the anonymity rule.

 

I would think the main thing is being willing to follow the rules. Particularly the ones regarding war, since those are the heaviest-handed/the biggest departure from a regular game.

 

Otherwise, what are people gonna do if you aren't keeping them updated on your Senate's kerfluffles? Not vote for you? :)

 

Regarding the gmail account it was only for setting up the anonymous logins. If there is another way to do that I'm fine with it. Most of the private diplomacy I do in the other game is conducted via PM with the other person's anonymous login.

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Nugog, it's assumed people can't play every turn at 8H timers. Rarely do you need to do that in the early game. At the very least, you can play every other turn and not miss anything.

 

It worked out perfectly fine in DoE with 18 players.

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Another rules niggle: If a player is permasubbed, can the departing player reveal who they were? Or do they have to maintain anonymity even once they've left the game and someone else is controlling their civ?

 

No it must remain a deep dark secret until the very end............................................

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