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godking

Making the Southern Cross Bleed!

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I say go 50%, then upgrade everything, and invade.

This would be my idea as well :b:

 

Ya, other than generals, I tend to not upgrade anything with 15+ XP, less there is a major demand. Generals I just do because they are free.

Learned something new today... just to confirm: all XP above 10 is lost when upgrading units?

 

Maxing out upgrades of units I feel is our best route. We can make the cash well enough, and it tends to cause a surprise when someones power spike doubles the same turn that they declare war. It is also good for upgrading any defenders we may need, in case they do the back attack on us.

Indeed, save some money, upgrade a whole bunch and then invade. Keep some spare cash for upgrading defenders as needed. Nothing more fun to see an approaching army die because they thought to find longbows and on the turn they attach they've become riflemen ;)

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Learned something new today... just to confirm: all XP above 10 is lost when upgrading units?

 

Correct.

 

Indeed, save some money, upgrade a whole bunch and then invade. Keep some spare cash for upgrading defenders as needed. Nothing more fun to see an approaching army die because they thought to find longbows and on the turn they attach they've become riflemen ;)
Just for the record, they almost certainly will have rifling now, possibly even before we get it thanks to their golden age.

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Here are some of my thoughts. It is clear that we will not get a technology lead "window" that we can exploit against SC. I think it is safe to say that we will be fighting with equal units.

 

So, from an attacking perspective we will need to create a local numerical advantage to successfully take cities. This is going to be tough. Even if carefully planned, we cross the border in one turn, reduce the city defenses on the second, and attack on the third. Given the limited number of target cities in the north, they can plan their defenses accordingly, and move to reinforce the target city - and as has already been mentioned, use their catapults to wound our attacking stack.

 

We can attack in two or more different places, but if we are roughly equal strength, they can defend accordingly, and we all know of the advantages of defense in civ4 battles.

 

So, can we achieve some level of tactical surprise - ie attack through France or feint one way and intend having the serious attack go the other way? Not sure we could.

 

I was thinking of using two stacks of siege units and slow movers - they would move across the border next to two cities - probably Hapin and Te Tai Rei (via France) - the Te Tai Rei stack would be slightly larger, trying to give the idea of attacking there. All our cavalry would be stacked in Chasqui, set to move across the border and attack in the same turn once the defenses have been reduced.

 

Lots of holes.... SC may counterattack on turn one and eliminate or seriously wound the stack and our siege weapons. SC is clearly using spies, and they may see what we are planning.

 

Then there is the amphibious route. This one does have the best hope of achieving surprise, but I am also sure SC is aware of it. We may want to give some thought of sending a couple galleons underway as soon as possible, while those single quechuas are still defending cities. It may mean declaring war early, but razing two of SC's cities would seriously tilt the scales in our favour.

 

There is also the possibility of building a fleet of galleons, and sending them on their way with no units on board. Their sole purpose is to draw defenders away from the border cities. Or maybe one galleon will have units that will land on a forest or hill tile to further the deception. However, I am still not sure this is going to create the local superiority needed to take any cities.

 

Then there is the thought that we do not need to attack. We have the greater population - 158 to 133 when I counted a couple of turns ago. Their GA will give them an advantage over the next few turns, but over the longer term we should be OK. And if they attack us, we will then have the advantage of the defense, along with the defensive pact with France. We just need to figure some way of goading them into attacking us.

 

So, back to the attack. It would seem to me that the best option may be to move a couple of large stacks, or maybe just one, across the border toward Hapina or Mukata and start the regular siege and attack routine. And then one or two turns after that have one or more stacks of galleons hit a coastal city or two in the south - and hopefully they will be lightly defended. This seems consistent with what GK and Rhoth had been talking about earlier.

 

There ... that just a bit of a brain dump.

 

Another thought I had - in order to disguise a military build up - and Rhoth would know better how to do it - but what about the feasibility of doing partial builds each of infantry, cavalry and a cannon, and then finishing them off over 3 consecutive turns. Would we lose too many hammers having the builds 'parked' for that long?

 

But it would be neat to see say six cities produce 18 units over 3 turns.

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Good thoughts.

 

As to the galleons, I've already got them under construction (the first at least) in Mag Mell which is the farthest city away from them and not easy to see. Those will head over to France and take cover in a French city. I'm not going to name them to keep them looking more like regular units if SC sends a unit out looking. I think the back end attack to the left will be the single most useful attempt we can make. They almost have to expect an attack through the islands. They won't expect one from the left side.

 

Regarding disguising the military build-up, yeah we could do that. It won't help a huge amount because we do have a lot of units to build (and move around...for example getting 12 cavalry over to France for the galleon attack). But we can work with that a bit. It won't lose all that many hammers. I won't be able to sim it out in advance for perfection, but it would still keep a lid on our power numbers a bit. Combined with a last turn mass upgrade we could significantly boost our power numbers in the turns right before we attack. They will also know that we have moved to theocracy so we can't really hide that either.

 

Oh, and we'll be having 10 cities producing units, not 6. :D

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Oh, and we'll be having 10 cities producing units, not 6. :D

 

I just used that as an example. :tongue:

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Then there is the thought that we do not need to attack. We have the greater population - 158 to 133 when I counted a couple of turns ago. Their GA will give them an advantage over the next few turns, but over the longer term we should be OK. And if they attack us, we will then have the advantage of the defense, along with the defensive pact with France. We just need to figure some way of goading them into attacking us.

This is an interesting turn. How can we annoy them enough so they attack on our terms? Because just sitting it out and waiting is in my opinion not the way to keep the initiative on our side...

 

So, back to the attack. It would seem to me that the best option may be to move a couple of large stacks, or maybe just one, across the border toward Hapina or Mukata and start the regular siege and attack routine. And then one or two turns after that have one or more stacks of galleons hit a coastal city or two in the south - and hopefully they will be lightly defended. This seems consistent with what GK and Rhoth had been talking about earlier.

This is sort of playing the "old fashioned way" and maybe anticipated by SC. We did something similar with the Vikings. Although it seems an efficient way to wage war and divert the enemy troops, it may become "expected".

 

Therefor I like the attack by sea from the left. It takes some time to prepare but gives us a suprising angle to attack from, just because it takes so much time to prepare.

 

Another thought I had - in order to disguise a military build up - and Rhoth would know better how to do it - but what about the feasibility of doing partial builds each of infantry, cavalry and a cannon, and then finishing them off over 3 consecutive turns. Would we lose too many hammers having the builds 'parked' for that long?

 

But it would be neat to see say six cities produce 18 units over 3 turns.

I love this! :b:

 

Oh, and we'll be having 10 cities producing units, not 6. :D

How come? There were still a few cities producing commerce/buildings right?

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Good thoughts.

 

As to the galleons, I've already got them under construction (the first at least) in Mag Mell which is the farthest city away from them and not easy to see. Those will head over to France and take cover in a French city. I'm not going to name them to keep them looking more like regular units if SC sends a unit out looking. I think the back end attack to the left will be the single most useful attempt we can make. They almost have to expect an attack through the islands. They won't expect one from the left side.

 

I know it would take even more unit production, but having some naval units feint from the island side may be helpful.

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OK - just some more thoughts/questions. :)

 

Any reason we are maintaining open borders with SC? We are getting ivory which we don't need and a happy lux which I also think we can do without. It gets their units out of our territory - and puts the question of "when" into their mind. I don't think it will make them any more alert to our behavior than they already are.

 

Also, De Gaulle is still willing to go to war against SC. And they have musketeers.

 

Just to throw an idea out there, but how about we go to war sooner than later. We can get deGaulle on side now. We may not be able to later. And we make our initial move against Mukata - the city on the east coast. If our worker roads the jungle tile on the border, after roading his current tile - we can reach 7 of Mukata in one turn. If we take all our siege units and a good portion of our offensive force, we should be able to move on to the hill outside of Mukata on turn one, and on turn two - before any slow movers can make it from Hapina or their capitol, and on turn 2, we reduce the defences, hit it with our siege units and kill the defenders. We leave our units on the hill for the defensive bonus, and raze the city.

 

 

I am suggesting this occur before rifling and cav. We can then take our time with the remainder of the war, having an ally with a strong army on our side, and having removed a major SC city.

 

And last but not least - should we be considering more espionage activity. Spies on the defensive to start with - and especially one in Chasqui. And possible offensive spy missions. I know the AI loves poisoning water supplies and encouraging dissent.

Edited by Beta

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Another thought. Should we be upgrading our healer chariots to knights, or even cuirassiers, prior to having cavalry. They will be still be weaker than our main combat units, but would have greater 'survivability' than a strength 4 chariot. And as they are GG's, it would be free.

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OK - just some more thoughts/questions. :)

 

Any reason we are maintaining open borders with SC? We are getting ivory which we don't need and a happy lux which I also think we can do without. It gets their units out of our territory - and puts the question of "when" into their mind. I don't think it will make them any more alert to our behavior than they already are.

 

I've been waiting to end it until we're ready to attack them. No use in flagging it that we're close.

 

Also, De Gaulle is still willing to go to war against SC. And they have musketeers.

 

Just to throw an idea out there, but how about we go to war sooner than later. We can get deGaulle on side now. We may not be able to later. And we make our initial move against Mukata - the city on the east coast. If our worker roads the jungle tile on the border, after roading his current tile - we can reach 7 of Mukata in one turn. If we take all our siege units and a good portion of our offensive force, we should be able to move on to the hill outside of Mukata on turn one, and on turn tow - before any slow movers can make it from Hapina or their capitol, and on turn 2, we reduce the defences, hit it with our siege units and kill the defenders. We leave our units on the hill for the defensive bonus, and raze the city.

 

 

I am suggesting this occur before rifling and cav. We can then take our time with the remainder of the war, having an ally with a strong army on our side, and having removed a major SC city.

 

And last but not least - should we be considering more espionage activity. Spies on the defensive to start with - and especially one in Chasqui. And possible offensive spy missions. I know the AI loves poisoning water supplies and encouraging dissent.

 

Two things... First: if we want to go to war soon it would be better to wait at least until we get rifling. We've been building up this superior cash amount for upgrades, there is no sense in attacking without using it. It has possibilities though since SC doesn't have the money right now to do any serious upgrading. They would probably get a couple of them upgraded to rifles though.

 

Second: if we do go to war now it would probably preclude us from doing GK's western attack by sea. Once we're at war then SC will be spitting out units and probably protecting their back end better. Perhaps they wouldn't but you never know.

 

I think we should talk about this a bit more though. It does have possibilities since we would catch them without rifles for a while, and we could get the French onside with it.

 

Another thought. Should we be upgrading our healer chariots to knights, or even cuirassiers, prior to having cavalry. They will be still be weaker than our main combat units, but would have greater 'survivability' than a strength 4 chariot. And as they are GG's, it would be free.

 

Yes it would appear that they would have more survivability, but in reality they wouldn't if they were upgraded. As chariots they will be the absolute last units to be attacked in a stack. We don't want them to be attacked, nor do we want them to be attacking another unit. They are around for the sole purpose of giving our units faster healing.

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If we do a mass upgrade we could have about 12 riflemen and 10 cavalry in an attack stack (along with around 10-12 siege units). That would still leave several longbows that could be upgraded to rifles, and around 5 or so elephants in the Chasqui area to repel any attack. It would leave Jotunheim without many units at all, but if the French attack Te Tai Rei I don't think SC would be too interested in attacking Jotunheim by way of going through several jungles (that we can see) first.

 

This has some definite possibilities. Once the first wave is through we'd be attacked, but we would have the greater advantage from the fact that all of units are fully upgraded, whereas their units would not. Plus we would then go right into mass rifle and cavalry production at the same time we attack.

 

I'm starting to think of the possibilities here and they are exciting. We may not hit the back end of SC for awhile, but we could hit the front end with overwhelming force before they really expect it. We can still work on the back end attack while we're going with the front end attack.

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Ok - back to the borders issue. Would closing the borders now signal anything to SC that they were not already aware of? I doubt it. And it has the advantage of getting that unit out of our territory - but I can guess that they have spies around as well - we already caught one - so not sure that one unit is making that much of a difference. Hmmm...

 

Speaking of spies - is it not worth producing a few more for both 'offensive' and 'defensive' purposes - and thinking about some espionage efforts (ie the water poisoning.) From a defensive perspective, would hate for SC to do a successful treasury grab right now.

 

And as to the 'sooner than later' plan - I am thinking that we will have a military advantage for such a small window that it would be good to utilize it right away. I do like the west coast invasion idea - but that will take many turns in the planning. At that point we may be into a stalemate situation. Their current GA lead notwithstanding, you have built up a good economic base, Rhoth. That is evident in the population stats and the other graphs. One serious hit such as Mutata could really swing the balance in our favor.

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I'm sure they expect something to come sooner or later, but I'd rather not give them an early hint. Closing the borders now is kind of a dead giveaway that we're planning something. We probably should have closed the borders right after the Viking war, but we didn't think of it then.

 

Yeah it would probably be worth it to produce another spy or two for defensive purposes, or if we lose the one we have.

 

For "sooner than later" yeah, that's pretty much what my thinking was coming around to. Hit them before they can do anything about it and ruin one of their main economic cities. Then hit them again later once the back end plan is in place. If there is a stalemate between the two that's fine. We still have more cities and a broader base of production. But if we get France into the war then they will be attacking too and SC will have more to worry about than just us. They'll have to protect two fronts and it will be difficult to do that. If they do it equally then both sides are weakened. If they move most of their units to protect against us then the French (who have the largest army of anyone) will roll over Te Tai Rei. That's just as good as if we raze it.

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At this moment it will take both military tradition and replaceable parts, plus 450 gold to convince the French to go to war. Hopefully they will not receive either of these techs before then.

 

The French have a decent force in Orleans that they can get to SC's borders in 2 turns or so. It doesn't contain much in the way of siege weapons though.

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At this moment it will take both military tradition and replaceable parts, plus 450 gold to convince the French to go to war. Hopefully they will not receive either of these techs before then.

 

The French have a decent force in Orleans that they can get to SC's borders in 2 turns or so. It doesn't contain much in the way of siege weapons though.

 

Well, I guess the upside is that if they go to war on our side, we would want them as militarily capable as possible.

 

As to the siege weapons, they may come. But it would still be nice just to have a large stack of French troops move into SC's territory.

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It might be worth wild hitting them up now with a counter espionage missions, to make it too expensive for them to do any spy missions on us.

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For comparison purposes, and to assess what SC can do in terms of upgrades, here are the respective armies, with SC's as best as Mentlegen has been able to figure out.

 

UNIT.......APOC.........SC

 

Archer ......... 1 ..............1

Longbow .......10 ............7

Crossbow ......4 ............. 2

Chariot ..........2 ..............1

Knight ...........5 ...............6

Elephant ........10 .............2

Warrior* ........5 ...............8

Axe ...............1 ...............4

Mace .............7 ...............1

Spear ............1 ...............1

Pike ...............5 ...............6

Sword ............0 ...............1

Cats ...............1 ...............9

Trebs .............9 ...............0

Musket ...........1 ...............7

 

* includes Quechua

Edited by Beta

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The quick and obvious analysis...

 

We have trebs, they have cats. Presumably they are expecting to hit our stacks as we cross the border.

 

We have 7 maces, they have 7 muskets. A little less cost for them to upgrade.

 

We have 8 more elephants than they do.

 

The rest is pretty much a wash.

 

Not that it means much, but we have 62 units and they have 56.

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The quick and obvious analysis...

 

We have trebs, they have cats. Presumably they are expecting to hit our stacks as we cross the border.

 

If we hit Mukata quickly enough then they won't have time to get their cats into place. That is also why I want to build a few cavalry with flanking I and II so they have a 60% chance of escape. It only takes escape to get the flank attack hits on siege units.

 

We have 7 maces, they have 7 muskets. A little less cost for them to upgrade.

 

We have 8 more elephants than they do.

 

The rest is pretty much a wash.

 

Not that it means much, but we have 62 units and they have 56.

 

 

 

Where we really have them though is in XP. We've been in wars with three opponents, they've been in one, and we know they lost a lot of units in that one. Most of their units will only have the base barracks or stables XP. Most of our units, especially the elephants and maces, have extra XP from battles, vassalage and the GG in Mag Mell. When we go back to building hordes of units again we'll have extra XP from theocracy, the GG in Mag Mell and West Point in SCM.

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BTW, I'm thinking of giving replaceable parts to the French the turn before we attack. That way we can give them rifling as part of the war deal, which should then cost us less gold to coerce them into attacking. I have a hunch they are researching replaceable parts which is why they keep wanting more gold each turn for the attack (I've been checking that and it keeps going up).

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If we hit Mukata quickly enough then they won't have time to get their cats into place. That is also why I want to build a few cavalry with flanking I and II so they have a 60% chance of escape. It only takes escape to get the flank attack hits on siege units.

 

That's the plan. :)

 

 

 

 

 

Where we really have them though is in XP. We've been in wars with three opponents, they've been in one, and we know they lost a lot of units in that one. Most of their units will only have the base barracks or stables XP. Most of our units, especially the elephants and maces, have extra XP from battles, vassalage and the GG in Mag Mell. When we go back to building hordes of units again we'll have extra XP from theocracy, the GG in Mag Mell and West Point in SCM.

 

Indeed! It was something that I noticed but forgot to mention. We clearly have an edge. :D

 

And how much that edge is worth will clearly depend on the situation - but I would say we have at least a 10% advantage in promos.

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I'm guessing that they will upgrade their muskets and longbows in Mukata the moment they see us headed that way, so the town will be tough to take, but once it's done they won't have cash to upgrade anymore. What I'm hoping is that they start their upgrades before we attack so they will spread it out (and hopefully most will be in Hapina) so that Mukata will be lessened.

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Hmm, scratch that on avoiding being hit. They have four catapults halfway between Hapina and Mukata. The Mukata reserve force is close enough that they could hit us with those cats and put the crossbow, two axes, and two war elephants into Mukata for defense. We'll definitely need all we have, but if we can destroy them quickly then that will be a significant chunk of their forces down on the second turn of the war. Plus they really don't have a whole lot of units to their west, and that is where the French will attack.

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