Rhoth

Foreign Affairs Discussion - Southern Cross

534 posts in this topic

First off, we can have alphabet on around turn 115 or so which is actually 25 turns from now. I wonder if they still think the "20 turn target" was to get alphabet from the time we originally contacted them, which obviously won't happen.

 

Either way, once we have alphabet we can start trading with others. I'm fairly sure that SC just got iron working and has at least mysticism on the monk branch of the tech tree (as Incas they started with it). Iron working will be necessary for the future, and nice to have, but we don't necessarily need it right away since we have copper. If the game progresses far enough for crossbows and knights though we'll definitely want it. Plus sailing if they have that, but I doubt it since they're currently landlocked. We may need to get that from an AI.

 

I think first we need to decide on our future tech progression and go from there. Do we want macemen first which indicates a run through currency, code of laws and civil service? Or longbows which indicates a run through mysticism, priesthood, monarchy, and feudalism? Crossing these over though, priesthood would make code of laws cheaper, and feudalism would make civil service cheaper. Monarchy would also give us hereditary rule which would allow our cities to grow larger without the need for calendar right away.

 

It might do to try to get them to run through the monk branch while we run through currency. If they can get priesthood before we are ready to research code of laws that would be helpful, and if they get to feudalism (a more expensive tech) before we get to civil service that would be helpful as well. That way, between the two of us, we could accomplish both paths (to feudalism and a cheaper civil service).

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Tech costs:

 

Writing - 193 (not sure if they have it)

Mathematics - 401

Construction - 562

Alphabet - 483

Currency - 644

Code of Laws - 582

Total - 2672 (without writing)

 

Iron Working - 322

Mysticism - 79

Meditation - 128

Priesthood - 96

Monarchy - 483

Feudalism - 1127

Total - 2235

 

Say we offer them math for mysticism, meditation, priesthood and a 98 beaker credit, if they can get priesthood to us before we go after CoL. Then a later trade of alphabet for monarchy. Then ask them to go for feudalism if they can get it before we are ready to go for civil service, for which we offer them construction and code of laws and still have the 98 credit. We'd still have currency as a future chip and then be able to research civil service, plus we'd have some time before we trade them alphabet in order to accrue some trades with the AI for sailing, perhaps iron working, and hopefully horseback riding

 

Thoughts?

Edited by Rhoth

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From my original letter to them suggesting the tech deal sent by Beta right before he left:

 

We would like to start out by saying that we need about 20 turns to finish a Tech

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First off, we can have alphabet on around turn 115 or so which is actually 25 turns from now. I wonder if they still think the "20 turn target" was to get alphabet from the time we originally contacted them, which obviously won't happen.

 

Either way, once we have alphabet we can start trading with others. I'm fairly sure that SC just got iron working and has at least mysticism on the monk branch of the tech tree (as Incas they started with it). Iron working will be necessary for the future, and nice to have, but we don't necessarily need it right away since we have copper. If the game progresses far enough for crossbows and knights though we'll definitely want it. Plus sailing if they have that, but I doubt it since they're currently landlocked. We may need to get that from an AI.

 

I think first we need to decide on our future tech progression and go from there. Do we want macemen first which indicates a run through currency, code of laws and civil service? Or longbows which indicates a run through mysticism, priesthood, monarchy, and feudalism? Crossing these over though, priesthood would make code of laws cheaper, and feudalism would make civil service cheaper. Monarchy would also give us hereditary rule which would allow our cities to grow larger without the need for calendar right away.

 

It might do to try to get them to run through the monk branch while we run through currency. If they can get priesthood before we are ready to research code of laws that would be helpful, and if they get to feudalism (a more expensive tech) before we get to civil service that would be helpful as well. That way, between the two of us, we could accomplish both paths (to feudalism and a cheaper civil service).

 

Wow

 

This is about 10 or 15 baby steps.

 

I suggest a response back saying that we will have alphabet in 25 turns, at that point suggest the first tech trade.

 

Thyen tell them once we agree to that then we need to agree on which trees we are goi gto go up in the near term to avoid duplication.

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And all I am going to say right up front is I don't care if we track beaker credits, but when it comes right down to it, I don't care if they owe us a credit till the end of the game.

 

Knowledge is power, and the more knowledge we have, the easier we will pop the vikings. And I would rather have SC friendly to us and possibly helping then the other way around.

 

So is the first trade?:

 

Say we offer them math for mysticism, meditation, priesthood and a 98 beaker credit

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Tech costs:

 

Writing - 193 (not sure if they have it)

Mathematics - 401

Construction - 562

Alphabet - 483

Currency - 644

Code of Laws - 582

Total - 2672 (without writing)

 

Iron Working - 322

Mysticism - 79

Meditation - 128

Priesthood - 96

Monarchy - 483

Feudalism - 1127

Total - 2235

 

Bla, counting points.... Everybody seams to do it though, and this looks reasonable. They obviously, from their score and from their statements, cannot research as well as we can now - so them taking a slightly lower point path is fine - particularly as they likely have several of the techs already.

 

First thing I would do is send them a note saying "Turn 115 we expect to have Alphabet. " After that, I would go and see what we can trade that we both currently already have. Iron working is important for the next age of combat, so we need to find some iron.

 

One of the biggest early techs has been left off the list - metal forging. Having forges in our towns is a big deal particularly if we are looking at building a significant army.

 

One other point is which of these techs can we get from the AI? At least one AI has built the Oracle, so they are likely to be 3-5 techs further ahead than we are.

 

Considering all of the above, I wouldn't mind presenting them that plan provided they understand the exceptions that we may get techs from the AI's sooner than from them, and that we would be glad to trade them those techs provided that we continue to coordinate research til things are semi-balanced (or, we have decided it is time to kill them off).

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Wow

 

This is about 10 or 15 baby steps.

 

I suggest a response back saying that we will have alphabet in 25 turns, at that point suggest the first tech trade.

 

Thyen tell them once we agree to that then we need to agree on which trees we are goi gto go up in the near term to avoid duplication.

 

I wasn't saying we should tell them everything we're going to do right now, I'm just saying we need to decide how we want to proceed. What I outlined was a possible tech progression for both of us.

 

As to beaker point costs, I don't care if we give them a little more now and then either, but it is a handy guide for "fair trading". I don't want to be giving them construction for meditation.

Edited by Rhoth

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One other point is which of these techs can we get from the AI? At least one AI has built the Oracle, so they are likely to be 3-5 techs further ahead than we are.

.

 

We should be able to get some from the AIs we have contact with, but I'm not sure what will be available, and we won't know until we have alphabet. Presumably we could probably get the cheaper monk techs from an AI (what I counted in the first trade), but you never know. If we ask them for it then we'd be sure, and those techs are cheap enough that they could have it ready for us by the time we have alphabet. Then we'd have a chance to grab sailing, iron working etc. from AIs while they head after monarchy and we head after currency. We do that trade and then we start CoL while they start feudalism. We'd almost certainly have CoL before they have feudalism as it's half the cost, though we'd be behind in starting it since currency is more expensive than monarchy. Then once they have feudalism we trade them two good techs for it and then are free to start civil service.

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Just got thru reading stuff and my relatives - ie my Mother is pestering me to get off the computer. Which I will really don't mind as it is my other nephew's Mac. I hate Macs. The keyboards suck.

 

We are home late Sat night, and on-line Sun. Morning. Cheers. Miller time.

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Trading with the AI might throw a wrench in the "fair trade" works in either direction. Maybe more likely against us, since SC may be in a better position to have AI contacts. We might want to consider agreeing to some form of sharing the benefits of tech trading with the AI, at least for techs acquired from the other team.

 

Regarding tech path: Going for the buildery techs is always good, but if we're going to be coming to blows with the Vikings sooner or later, I'd say Machinery for Crossbows is probably our next military priority, which gets us Metal Casting along the way. Feudalism for Longbows and then Civil Service for Macemen coming after. Sure, Longbows are great on defense, but I'd rather have a good offense.

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So is the first trade?:

 

Say we offer them math for mysticism, meditation, priesthood and a 98 beaker credit

 

If so Ill gin up a quick response to keep things moving after they say yay or nay, we can proceed further down the path.

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As far as I've seen, we don't even know what they have (yes, Rhoth may have a very good guess, but we should act like we don't have a clue). We're at the point where we need to see what each other even have to offer before going and making these trades, and they are waiting for us to show our hand first.

 

A simple, here is what we've researched, where are you guys at? is what is in order, IMO.

 

 

Is the no tech brokering in place? If not, we need to discuss NTA as well. And throw in something about not divulging our current research.

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Ah good point about the NTA. I completely forgot about that. "No tech brokering" is not on.

 

Agreed with UnO we should probably see what they have first.

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I could go either way on suggesting a first trade. In a way we may not want to divulge our intell efforts quite yet but then again on another hand, we might. They are going to find out sooner or later anyway if we ally.

 

So you want me to tell them what we have researched? Then say since we have divulged this info we assume you will not divulge this info to anyone else.

 

And as we trade into the future we assume each trade includes an NTA unless otherwise stated.

 

Does someone want to summarize where we are techwise right now? I just got back after two weeks, and Im kind of running and gunning today with an extremely large "honey-do" list.........

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The religious techs will come in handy down the line, but IW is the most immediately useful. It's also a tech I think we could easily suggest as simply being valuable, letting us play dumb about the fact they already have it. (Or is the idea to hope to get it from AI?)

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I don't have any problems either way. We may or may not get it from the AI. It's hard to tell right now. If we want to set up a long term tech research agreement with SC that's fine with me.

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Con - do you want to continue as the main contact with SC, or do you want me to take it back over. It really is a moot point either way, as all correspondence gets cleared hear first.

 

Proposed draft #1 where we reveal what we have.

 

Dear Southern Cross

 

We were pleased to hear that you look upon a tech trading arrangement as favourably as we do. To start things off in an open and trusting manner we will reveal what technologies we have, and what we are in the process of researching.

 

Have:

Wheel

Agriculture

Hunting

Mining

Fishing

Writing

Pottery

Animal Husbandry

Hunting

Bronze Working

 

Researching:

Math

Masonry

Construction

 

We will then commence research on Alphabet so we can trade technologies.

 

We will be finished Alphabet at or around Turn XX.

 

Once you have provided your list we can work out the details of that trade.

 

Regards ...con or Beta of Apocalypto

 

Proposed response #2, where we first confirm that we both want to reveal techs. It is possible, albeit unlikely, that with the above letter, SC may simply say that they did not agree to trade info, and thanks for the intel.

 

Dear Southern Cross

 

We were please to hear that you look upon a tech trading arrangement as favourably as we do. To start things off in an open and trusting manner we suggest we each will reveal what technologies we have, and what we are in the process of researching. From that basis we can then ensure that we do not duplicate immediate research, and we can start discussion on what techs to trade once we have researched alphabet. Does this sound OK to you?

 

Regards ...con or Beta of Apocalypto

 

Suggested response #3

 

This would be similar #1 but would include a suggestion of the tech trades as per the posts above.

Edited by Beta

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I would go with one. If they had half an intelligence brain they would pretty much know this anyway.

 

Plus if they send there techs back, or don't. We know where we stand more or less.

 

Tell them we can start alphabet in 11 turns more or less. We have simmed it but things can change kind of thing.

 

Based on the Viking spike, I want to take this leap of faith, it doesn't cost us much, but will reveal much. And I want to get to phase three of this relationship which is some kind of alliance. Phase two being a long term tech agreement, you go for this tree and we will go for that tree kind of thing.

 

I have a major school project to do with my 15 year old today so I won't be around much. Feel free to send. You can be our face to the world. I just pick up the slack when you are gone.

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I like #1 as well. The list of what techs we already have isn't juicy intel, anyway; the part that's a risk for us is telling them we're going for Construction. That is obviously a warmonger's move, and we can expect an inquisitive response to that, whether or not they actually come and ask us. If they still don't know about the Swine, they may actually jump to the conclusion we're heading out against the Vikings.

 

BTW: seeing as they appear Chariot-focused, SC would be a terrible enemy to have right now.

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I agree with #3, we need to get a trust based relationship going with SC very soon before the Vikes start to run away with the game.

 

@ Kloreep, only if you don't have spears (which we only have one right now). If you have spears to protect the axes then they would fold easily. But I'd prefer to have them as an ally then to get into another war and let the Vikes have free reign.

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I agree with #3, we need to get a trust based relationship going with SC very soon before the Vikes start to run away with the game.

 

@ Kloreep, only if you don't have spears (which we only have one right now). If you have spears to protect the axes then they would fold easily. But I'd prefer to have them as an ally then to get into another war and let the Vikes have free reign.

 

So make this offer?

 

Say we offer them math for mysticism, meditation, priesthood and a 98 beaker credit

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If no one else has a better idea than yeah. I know we could probably get some of those techs from the AI nations, but this way we'll be sure we get them and we're on the road to both feudalism and cheaper CoL and civil service; as well as hopefully a good relationship with SC

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Ok - going with #3 with the proposed trade, and dropping the beaker credit as I thought most did not want to get into that. Besides, it sweetens the offer a bit for SC.

 

Dear Southern Cross

 

We were please to hear that you look upon a tech trading arrangement as favourably as we do. To start things off in an open and trusting manner we will reveal what technologies we have, and what we are in the process of researching.

 

Have:

Wheel

Agriculture

Hunting

Mining

Fishing

Writing

Pottery

Animal Husbandry

Hunting

Bronze Working

 

Researching:

Math

Masonry

Construction

 

We will then commence research on Alphabet so we can trade technologies.

 

We will be finished Alphabet at or around Turn XX.

 

We propose that the initial trade be Math for Mysticism, Meditation and Priesthood. We can then work on the second round of trades.

 

Does this work for Southern Cross?

 

Regards,

 

Beta of Apocalypto

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