raf0485

Turns 10-19: The Epic Continues!!!

45 posts in this topic

Alright, I guess I'm gonna be runnin the next ten turns or so. I'll keep everyone up to date on everything going on, and discuss our course of action right here. I'll post screenshots of our current situation soon, and begin discussing our next turn.

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Just got done with turn 10. I moved the scout according to our plans, and have reached the northern coast of the continent. It is obvious that we are situated somewhere in the northern hemisphere of the planet. Our scout also survived the wolf attack, as we figured. Next turn, I plan to rest him, unless anyone objects to that - his health is down to .6, so he needs to heal a bit, I think.

 

I also moved the warrior according to plans, to the forested hill just east of Animal Farm. I left the worker production be for now, as I believe that the worker will be a good step forward.

 

After I ended the turn, AH was completed, revealing a source of horses (!!!) to the southeast of Animal Farm. We have little information from this side, but there may be some good turf for planting a city there in the future (hopefully). If not, we can wait for another border pop (which will surely come, and then build a pasture there, ASAP).

 

On a side note, I hope I'm being paranoid even bringing this up, but Apocalypto's scout has lingered on our southwestern border for a little bit now. I can't tell if they're just healing, but they definitely want sight into Animal Farm. I think we should be at least a bit wary of them...

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Edited by raf0485
Added title.

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Thanks. I hope it yields something nice, too (like a tech or a scout, either one would suit me just fine).

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I think we can wait for culture to expand and save the settler for a city in the north next to gold.

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Wow, less than an hour after you played your turn the next one has already arrived. I see I retired at just the right moment ;)

 

The Horses being so close is excellent news! As we're Financial we'll want to found as many coastal cities as possible anyway, so it would seem that founding a 2nd city on the desert tile next to that resource or the forest 9 of that desert would be a good move. Let's make sure we explore that area thoroughly, particularly for the presence of sea food. If we go Worker > Warrior > Settler we should have a Settler out in about 30 turns while it's 39 turns to the next border pop in Animal Farm, so we don't have to worry about getting the Horses in the initial radius of such a 2nd city. Of course, as the Horses will be inside our borders anyway we could choose not to focus on settling that area right away, but then we risk Apolacypto stealing the Horses from us by settling their own city on that desert tile.

 

I'd use the heal > move > heal > move approach for the Scout. Since the lands to its east seem quite hilly and would slow down movement, I'd recommend sticking with my proposed C-B-A plan and moving the Scout towards the Vikings and eventually let our Warrior (or another unit) explore those hills.

 

It's quite normal that Apocalypto wants to scout out our lands, it's not even so much to gain LoS into our capital (although that would be a nice bonus for them) as just wanting to know what kind of land and resources we have. It's not unheard of to send a sternly-worded diplomatic warning over this, but in the end every team will try this with every other team, and in this phase of the game there's nothing we can do to stop it. We can only hope we'll find their borders quickly and can return the favour ;)

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Great spot for the horses.

 

Not sure of a city on the desert nearby unless there are resources to the east of it, I'd swing the scout down this way to find Apocalypto and see.

 

In 39 turns, we could have a barracks and Wheel/Bronze Working (well close to BW) and whip/chop out an army of Immortals from the capital and take Vikings by surprise. If we went Wheel next we could have roaded to the horses in the 39 turns as well.

 

Even if we decide against this method and go for a settler, I'd grab the other gold city and let the horses come under control naturally. We should have established where Apocalypto are and unless they are ultra close, we shouldn't be at risk of losing the horses to them.

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Rested the scout this turn, so it will be a great time to figure out what to do with him next. The big question is - left, or right? I was thinking that we could proceed westward, to make contact with the Vikings soon from their north to throw them off balance. However, if you prefer, we can head eastward and seek out Apocalypto's city.

 

Nothing else truly exciting going on. We began research on mining this turn, and the warrior moved one tile closer to the goody hut. You'll also notice in the screenshots that Apocalypto's scout is heading southwest, toward the jungles there.

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39 turns is quite a long time. Enough time to produce a Worker (11 turns), Warrior (8 turns), Settler (10 turns), Barracks (8 turns) and even most of a second Worker, and by the time the Horses are hooked up you could chop/whip the last bit of a third Worker, overflowing into the first Immortal. (These times may vary depending on how you use the Worker and what tiles you work in the city, but you get the general idea.) So we don't need to delay our Settler even if we want to rush the Vikings -- on the contrary, it would be preferable if we didn't. We should stick to Worker > Warrior > Settler for build order IMO, that's the best approach whether we want to rush or not.

 

If we do indeed want to rush the Vikings then there is a strong case for settling on the desert next to the Horses: we won't have time to improve 2 cities, but we have to improve and road that Horse tile anyway, so having the second city border that tile means it can contribute to a rush right-away: it'll output 4F 4H at size 1 (between the city tile and improved horses) and will be hooked up to the road network as well, so it can actually build Immortals. Any other location would not have access to Horses and would likely also not be able to work any improved tiles until after the initial attack has taken place.

 

If we don't feel the need to rush, we can afford to settle near the Gold and focus on the economy first.

 

If we are going to rush the Vikings, it'll be important to hide our presence as long as possible, or they will likely prioritise Spears for defence in the knowledge that we have a Horse-based rushing UU. In that case I agree it's best to send our Scout towards Apocalypto first. It's still very likely the Vikings will find us before we're ready to send our Immortals on their way, but the less time we give them to prepare the better. If we're not going to rush them, it would be best to use the tactic of misdirection and hope we can make them send their first Settler west or north in "our direction".

 

So the real question is, do we want to rush the Vikings, yes or no? Mind you, rushing a human team this early is something I've only seen once before in a DG and that was under a very unique set of circumstances, usually teams will give each other at least some chance to develop. Kicking 1/4th the players out of the game very early would kind of suck from a community perspective. And it hardly seems fair to launch an attack on a team possibly before they even know we exist. Then again, it's their responsibility to scout around and find us, and I've also never seen 3 human teams this close together in a DG, us being flanked like this sucks as well: if we do nothing we are at a high risk of getting boxed in early and becoming a non-factor for the rest of the game. It's definitely a moral dilemma but I'm leaning very slightly towards going for the rush -- that's certainly the sound decision from a purely technical gameplay point of view (unless Apocalypto is right on top of us, but the only thing that that would chance is the victim of our rush). As far as I'm concerned if we manage to win and kill the Vikings their team members are more than welcome to join us or any other team for the rest of the game.

Edited by Locutus

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+1 for rush.

 

Also, with misdirection, they're more likely to search in where we came from. However, if they've already scouted there they might wonder. Also, what if they already know we are here, could they have gone left with their scout and saw us and not made contact as we did?

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It's altogether possible that they did see the tip of our territory, and didn't make contact, and are planning to rush us. I'm not keen on the idea of rushing them, but it may be the best thing we can do. I don't particularly like the idea of getting boxed in.

 

Based upon all this, I'm leaning toward moving the scout to the east, and exploring a bit more out there. We still have some time, if anyone else wants to chirp in with their take on the matter. I'm still not opposed to attempting to approach the Vikings from the north.

 

If we do decide to rush, I have to agree that the horses will be totally necessary. Without our UU, the chances of victory are significantly lower (or, at the least we would need much greater numbers to pull it off) than with them. I agree with the Worker>Warrior>Settler build queue. This will make us stronger faster than we would be if we held off while building a barracks. Once the worker has worked many of the surrounding tiles, we can push for the barracks then, perhaps, before building our immortal army. The promotions on the immortals would be quite valuable.

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It seems odd that the map maker put the human teams this close, are we sure its Vikings, not some other purple civ (China maybe)? At some stage, one human team is going to go after one of the others. It may make us an enemy of the other two teams but I think it is the best chance at victory. We have plenty of turns to really decide in any case.

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Also, with misdirection, they're more likely to search in where we came from. However, if they've already scouted there they might wonder. Also, what if they already know we are here, could they have gone left with their scout and saw us and not made contact as we did?

 

Of course we cannot know for sure, but I don't think it's terribly likely. Generally making contact only brings good things, including this early the ability to scout out what will down the line be the heartland of our empire (in MP games players guard this info very closely; don't count on there being any in-game map trades in this DG, only out-of-game screenshot trades with sensitive areas blurred/removed), and it's inevitable to occur quickly if we're this close anyway. The singular reason I'm in favour of trying to avoid contact pre-rush is because they know Immortals are our UU so it would probably lead them to build more Spears as defenders than they normally would. Us meeting them or us meeting Apocalypto on their own would normally not have affected our strategy much (were it not for the fact that we met both of them so quickly in succession) as neither of them have any particular early-game units we should fear. However, had we found Southern Cross as a neighbour, we certainly would've make sure to beeline to Immortals as well, to be able to defend against a Quechua rush.

 

It seems odd that the map maker put the human teams this close, are we sure its Vikings, not some other purple civ (China maybe)? At some stage, one human team is going to go after one of the others. It may make us an enemy of the other two teams but I think it is the best chance at victory. We have plenty of turns to really decide in any case.

 

To be fair, Solver was only asked to make sure starting locations were balanced and he stressed this a couple of times after making the map. I thought he might be alluding to some specific longer-term unbalance that he left unchecked by that, and I guess we've found what that is. Of course, to me it's obvious that balancing starts includes taking immediate neighbours into account, he definitely should've swapped our starting position with that of an AI IMO, but I guess he didn't interpret that to be part of his job description. A good lesson for the next DG...

 

As far as purple belonging to another team, I've been trying to think of any possibility. I've been wrong before on this: in the previous DG I was convinced we started close to HRE when it turned out to be Egypt -- both are of course similar shades of yellow. But the Vikings are a very pale purple, whereas other purple civs like China and India have much darker shades, so it's unlikely we're confusing them. Of course even if it turns out we are wrong, whoever is over there still makes for an excellent target for a rush...

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I was in some suspense over whether to go ahead and play the turn or to go to bed for the night and see who else may post here overnight. But, in the end, I decided to go ahead and take the turn. I'm still unsure as to whether I did the right thing, but I guess time will tell.

 

I popped the hut right away. We got 47 gold. I know. I was a bit disappointed, too. But, the surrounding territory turned up another source of horses and some clams just off the coast. The bad news? There's a lion there, too. I'm not sure if our warrior will survive, but the odds seem to be in our favor.

 

I moved the scout to the southeast of its position, onto another hill. This gave us a view of the surrounding landscape. Unsurprisingly, there are more hills. Additionally, there are two more sources of gold in those hills. I think the map designer had powerhouse economies in mind when he made this map.

 

Aside from this, not much has changed. We are still researching mining and building a worker to begin economic infrastucture. For the next turn, I was thinking of resting the scout again (like we discussed) and possibly even the warrior. If he survives, he will still take damage, I'm sure.

 

One of my screenshots seems to have failed. I'll have it up, soon.

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Ok, here's the missing screenshot. It's just one of our scout's current position and the surrounding terrain. I am also attaching one of our capital, though nothing has changed there this turn. Any ideas where to go with the scout and warrior next? I was thinking the hill with the gold on it to the southeast will give us a good los. Not sure about the warrior, though. When I've rested him a bit (assuming that is our course of action), shall we continue eastward or back to Animal Farm to defend the city? I don't know that I like seeing our capital unprotected, but the extra exploration is good, too.

 

Now, I'm off to bed. It's after two here, and I'm quite tired.

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Bizarre move by Solver to put two horses so close together, that doesn't occur naturally and I see no reason why he would want to do this...

 

Still, that definitely seals that location as key for an early city IMO, we'll want to lay a claim to both of those Horses, if only to prevent others from doing so (but with 4 resources it's also a very strong location in its own right). Settling that forest tile where the Lion is would probably be strongest move long-term, but that would mean having to build an extra road tile to hook it up if we want that city to participate in a rush.

 

Of course, a 2-gold city is also extremely valuable, and we know Apocalypto knows about those resources as well (while they don't know about the Horses yet). They will likely be gearing up to send a Settler there early, so it may be best to use our first Settler to claim that site if we can and only use our capital for a rush. It will slow down our early development but having 3 and eventually 4 Gold in our early cities will let us fund at least 3-4 more cities than we normally could pre-Currency/CoL.

 

If the warrior lives, I'd say move onto the desert right away to see if there's a second seafood in the BFC of a possible city there. That tile is also less exposed so it's a better place to heal then where he's now. I agree the Scout should go to the Gold hill, once it's healed a turn.

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Bad news, gentlemen. We lost the warrior to that lion. Also, I moved the scout to the gold hill, which reveled another lion. With our scout at 0.7 health, I think we can count on losing him as well. It is very rare for any unit to make it through the entire game, but I wasn't counting on us being crippled at this point in the game. I would like to suggest that it may be necessary for us to pump out a new warrior (at the least) on the double quick. I haven't changed production yet, because I wanted to run it by everyone first. This is definitely not good. It isn't the end of it all by any means, but it could make all the difference. I even forgot to take a shot of the demo screen. I'll have that up shortly.

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Here's that 2nd screen shot.

 

BTW, Locutus, how do you get the demo screen to pop up on top of the game screen like you do? I like that look a little better than the method I've been using.

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This is my fault. I'm sorry. I should have rested the scout this turn, but I moved him, thinking it was time to move him again. I should have gone back and checked what I did on the last turn more thoroughly. As it sits, we are likely to lose the scout.

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OUR SCOUT SURVIVED!!! Seriously, not even kidding. And, he gets a second promotion. I think that woodsman 2 may be best, but I would like input, too. Shall we change the current build queue to make up for the loss of our warrior? Or, shall we stay the course, knowing that we will build another warrior next?

 

I have not played the turn, but intend to in the morning - about 8 hours from now. I hate to delay the game, but input would be valued.

 

Anyway, a screenshot is attached.

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Excellent news on the Scout :b: Woodsman II, heal.

 

Too bad about the Warrior but I don't think we should delay the Settler if we can help it. Just stick with just one scouting unit for now, we'll need our next Warrior for defensive purposes.

 

BTW, raf, we have another sign-up.

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BTW, Locutus, how do you get the demo screen to pop up on top of the game screen like you do? I like that look a little better than the method I've been using.

 

The size of the screen is fixed. You're using a tiny screen resolution, the demo screen is full-screen for you. However I'm using a much larger resolution so for me it's just a small overlay on the main map. The only way to change this is to switch to a larger screen resolution, but for the legibility of screenshots it's actually better to play this on smaller resolutions anyway.

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Nothing much going on here. I went ahead with the Woodsman 2 promotion. That'll give him two moves on forest squares, which is a pretty good advantage for a scout. Also, fixed the screen rez. It looks pretty good in full size, I think.

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Since I rested our scout on the last turn, I went ahead and moved him this turn. I brought him down to the next hill, not the one immediately south east of him, but the next one. There, I spotted one of Apocalypto's warriors and the edge of their territory. I plan on resting him again on the next turn.

 

Now, the next question is: should we try to scout out around Apocalypto's edges a bit, to try to get a LOS on their capital? I think that it would be quite valuable to see how well defended they are, so that we can determine the reasons they have their warrior outside their borders in an area they have undoubtedly already scouted. I would also like to point out that there are good reasons to continue on the clockwise circuit of exploration - one being that it could be a waste of time to try to gain sight into their capital. Let me know what you think, as turn 17 (when the scout is ready to move again) will probably be up early tomorrow.

 

Tech-wise, mining will be complete soon. The next tech for research will be bronze working, I am assuming, unless we should decide to take a different route.

 

Also, that lion is hanging around the edge of our border. I know that animals can't take cities, but I can't remember right now if they can enter our borders. If it can, then that would jeopardize our worker when it is completed. One other thing - anyone have any ideas on what to name our scout?

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