DanQ

RevCast Episode 17: "Not Too Early, Not Too Late"

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The balancing act that it is. Regular co-hosts Joe "joebreeves" Reeves, Grayson "Grayson" Middlebrook and Matt "elthrasher" Morgan lead the RevCast (RC) panel in its seventeenth episode entitled "Not Too Early, Not Too Late"; now netcasting, this second season premiere has a runtime of 29m59s. The summary of topics is as follows:

 

- 01m52s | Topic #1

An overview of playing as the English nation in Civilization: Revolution.

- 03m44s | Topic #2

Ancient Era play for this civ in detail including its bonuses, online prevalence and what its circumstance does and does not lend itself too.

- 14m19s | Topic #3

Why waiting for eras subsequent, as England, is desirable.

- 17m39s | Topic #4

England's Modern Era with a focus on why its naval advantage trumps the advent of Tanks.

- 21m52s | Topic #5

Defending against this exponentially powerful player.

 

RevCast is the second spin-off of the Civ strategy-centric PolyCast; the modding-centric ModCast was the first such spin-off. Unlike either of its older siblings, RC has no defined segment categories.

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Question: howcum there's no action in this folder, yet someone finds the game important enough to do a podcast about? I'm really asking. I haven't been around the community all that long, and there's a cognitive dissonance here.

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Question: howcum there's no action in this folder' date=' yet someone finds the game important enough to do a podcast about? I'm really asking. I haven't been around the community all that long, and there's a cognitive dissonance here.[/quote']

 

I can understand the cog dissonance in this case. There's very little action in the CivRev section on We Play Civ, and maybe that should be rectified in the near future. I'll see what I can do about posting some strategies here, as well, as getting more CivRev players to the site. This forum in general is more heavily frequented by the PC gamers, and has a great active community in those areas...

 

But, the CivRev community is not dead at all. There are many other forums where the game is still heavily discussed, most notably at forums.2kgames.com and www.civfanatics.com.

 

I think the disconnect between the activities on the forums is due in large part to the estabished community that has been around talking about the PC games for a while on various forums, while CivRev has been around for less than 2 years, and is on the consoles, which can lead to a different demographic.

 

The multiplayer community for CivRev on PS3 and Xbox Live is still going very strong, and I never have a problem finding a game. There is a very loyal following, especially on Xbox, and although it's the only game that I have really played in the last year and a half, the gamers that go on to other games, seem to keep coming back to CivRev for a few games a week or month.

 

I'd still be doing this podcast if there was a way to do it, even without a very active community, because I love this game, love talking strategy, and it's still as fresh for me as it was a year ago.

 

I hope you enjoy the podcasts, please don't feel like you are the only one out there who knows about it. I hope you continue to visit WPC forums for this game, as well as connect with the greater CivRev community on various sites around the net.

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Well you know, a non- trivial portion of my activities at WPC is forum building stuff. A few dedicated people can create enough activity to draw more activity, and eventually it should become self-sustaining. The SMAC forum is proof of this.

 

I very much encourage you to take a run at building this folder into something. Try to get a few partners to play along- I've found it takes more than one. It can be done, and as I've pointed out to people who's loyalty is primarily at other sites- a healthy forum here will draw unique newbs who are a recruiting opportunity. A rising tide lifts all boats.

 

Good luck, sir.

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Old-time SMACer and practising CivRev player zsozso reporting for duty!

Indeed, there are a lot more players of CivRev than SMAC, but they probably do not know about this forum...

 

I will post a couple of strategies myself soon.

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You've made a fine start, sir. This is how you do it. Activity creates activity.

 

You need to get yourself a regular crony, though. It seems to take at least two people to get it rolling- I've been trying the same thing in Civ2 for a while now, but I've not had much luck getting accomplices. One guy can post stuff, but two can have conversations. I barely even play SMAC anymore, so I don't actually have much to say about 2, which really doesn't help...

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OK to say something on-topic here:

 

I recently played a head-to-head ranked MP game getting English on random. Opponent was Arab, so I thought, OK, it is time to test out the strength of those longbow archers, because I figured I would be soon visited by a fundamentalist horse army. So, after making my 2 warriors in 5 turns, I set the workers on trade and teched Bronze Working in the next 5 turns, trying to play it safe. Normally, my strategy would be to horse-rush myself with almost any civ in h2h, because there are all those AI capitals waiting to be exploited. Well, as it turns out the first barbarian village gives me Horse Back Riding. I resist the urge to start making horses and build some archers after BW is finished. But when I get my 100g and see still no sign of Arab horses, I can't resist anymore and start building my own horses, just then I bump into an Arab warrior with my own warrior. We are both 1 tile from a barb which has 1 flag, I am on a hill. He is faster next turn and takes the barb, but then I kill his injured warrior from the hill. Now, I'm sure the horses will come soon, so I complete my archer army in London and continue building my counter-attack horse army form 2 cities. Sure enough, a single horse kills my warrior, but I manage to revenge it with the horse army. However, after that no more seems to be showing up, I find the Chinese AI but they have an archer army already up, so I retreat. My tech is set to Feudalism for early knights, but I am not actually researching anything, my workers are set to food/hammers for expansion while I gallop around to learn the map and try to find any stray barbs left. In the meantime I setup some longbow archers at choke points and nice future city locations. I am shown the location of the Ark, so I build a galley, but the Ark gets picked up before I could get anywhere close. However, I do find School of Confucius on another island, giving me a Great Explorer and a Great Scientist -- just before picking up I get my 1st culture based GP, and it is a Great leader. Oops, that means knights and elites with a barrack! I'm still in ancient with 3 techs only and 4 cities, I rush barracks in a 3-tree location and settle the GL there, pop Feudalism and make a march+infiltration knight army. It takes 5 turns to reach Tripoli with it, then the game is over in the following turn.

 

So, I had every good intention to not horse rush and wanted to get to the Modern era, but ancient elite knights just don't let you waste time like that.. :D LOL

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OK to say something on-topic here:

 

I recently played a head-to-head ranked MP game getting English on random. Opponent was Arab, so I thought, OK, it is time to test out the strength of those longbow archers, because I figured I would be soon visited by a fundamentalist horse army. So, after making my 2 warriors in 5 turns, I set the workers on trade and teched Bronze Working in the next 5 turns, trying to play it safe.

 

If you ask me, this is playing it a little too safe. I would rather grow to 3 pop or even get a second city before researching Bronze. It's highly unlikely the Arab player will get horses to you that quickly. The Arabs don't really have any great advantages in getting a fast horse army. It's just that their horses are really strong and can sometimes beat archer armies.

 

But usually not longbow armies. A non-vet army in your cap fortifies to 22.5 defense. That's fairly hard for an Arab horse army (pre-industrial where they get an extra +1 bonus) to beat. Normally that army will have a meager 13.5 attack if veteran. Give them infiltration and it goes up to 18. They'll also need a Great General or a hill to attack from to have an even shot and need both of those as well as infiltration to actually have the advantage (which by no means guarentees a win). Inf/GG armies aren't that common. You probably either have to survive a few attacks or win at least one battle against the odds after having already earned infiltration. So basically longbows will stop Arab horses most of the time.

 

But I still wouldn't try to get Bronze right away by 3000 BC. Instead send warriors in all directions. If the horse army is heading your way, build more warriors in your cap or station them on a hill nearby. In the first case, you let the Arabs attack and kill one of your warriors, then you army up and kill his wounded horse army (or wait until next turn to do that if he didn't get wounded - he will eventually). In the other case, you keep careful watch and ambush his army as he comes by. Killing your enemy's horse army is way better than just being safe from it. If he's smart, he'll realize he can't take London and instead use his army to just stop you from having any other mainland cities. No more mainland cities = very difficult to manage a knight rush.

 

I know you know a lot of this stuff, Zso, but I'm really spelling it out because I don't think it's been discussed before on this forum.

 

Normally, my strategy would be to horse-rush myself with almost any civ in h2h, because there are all those AI capitals waiting to be exploited. Well, as it turns out the first barbarian village gives me Horse Back Riding. I resist the urge to start making horses and build some archers after BW is finished. But when I get my 100g and see still no sign of Arab horses, I can't resist anymore and start building my own horses, just then I bump into an Arab warrior with my own warrior. We are both 1 tile from a barb which has 1 flag, I am on a hill. He is faster next turn and takes the barb, but then I kill his injured warrior from the hill. Now, I'm sure the horses will come soon, so I complete my archer army in London and continue building my counter-attack horse army form 2 cities. Sure enough, a single horse kills my warrior, but I manage to revenge it with the horse army.

 

Did the Arab player take another other caps? Was he having money issues? If he was not so good, then he may have just been taking forever with his horses and when you killed one, decided to play defense instead (bad move). If he was good, he probably had his army off attacking the AI somewhere, figuring he wasn't going to get anywhere attacking the English.

 

However, after that no more seems to be showing up, I find the Chinese AI but they have an archer army already up, so I retreat. My tech is set to Feudalism for early knights, but I am not actually researching anything, my workers are set to food/hammers for expansion while I gallop around to learn the map and try to find any stray barbs left. In the meantime I setup some longbow archers at choke points and nice future city locations. I am shown the location of the Ark, so I build a galley, but the Ark gets picked up before I could get anywhere close. However, I do find School of Confucius on another island, giving me a Great Explorer and a Great Scientist -- just before picking up I get my 1st culture based GP, and it is a Great leader. Oops, that means knights and elites with a barrack! I'm still in ancient with 3 techs only and 4 cities, I rush barracks in a 3-tree location and settle the GL there, pop Feudalism and make a march+infiltration knight army. It takes 5 turns to reach Tripoli with it, then the game is over in the following turn.

 

So, I had every good intention to not horse rush and wanted to get to the Modern era, but ancient elite knights just don't let you waste time like that.. :D LOL

 

I'd say your instincts were right. You had knights that could actually win the game for you not long after you made a fairly useless horse army. In a FFA game, you probably wouldn't have gained enough gold off the map to get a barracks and two more knights after spending all that money on an archer army and a horse army. Of course in H2H you can get almost half the barbs most of the time because the AI is so slow, so it's a lot easier to get 200-300 gold to get all that stuff.

 

I'd say your opponent either didn't really know what he was doing or was having a bad game. Even if he wasn't going to get you quickly enough with his horses, he could've at least ambushed your knight army. Arab horses are plenty strong enough to kill English knights. Even worse, he let you expand. As discussed, Arab horsemen are almost useless attacking cities with longbow archers, but an archer or two on the go? They will die easily. How could you send out settlers with Arab horsemen all over the place? He could've contained you, taken up the rest of the map and then killed you at his leisure. Instead he is probably taken surprise by your knights when there's no reason he should've been. Let me guess - his cap had an archer army and nothing else in it, right?

 

I'm thinking a future RevCast topic will be why archer armies are actually worse than single archers. 'Cause they are a lot of the time.

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El-Thrasher sighting, Hurray!

 

Good to see you pop over here too!

 

Replies in bold:

 

If you ask me, this is playing it a little too safe. I would rather grow to 3 pop or even get a second city before researching Bronze. It's highly unlikely the Arab player will get horses to you that quickly. The Arabs don't really have any great advantages in getting a fast horse army. It's just that their horses are really strong and can sometimes beat archer armies.

 

You are right, I was playing it way too safe. Usually I just go for horses after warriors and never bother with archers, but I wanted to try something different inspired by the podcast, trying to get to Modern and use those archers to kill the enemy then :)

 

...

 

 

But I still wouldn't try to get Bronze right away by 3000 BC. Instead send warriors in all directions. If the horse army is heading your way, build more warriors in your cap or station them on a hill nearby.

 

I did keep the warrior that found his on that hill for look-out, and his horse killed it there. I wasn't fast enough to be the attacker -- my usual problem with the parallel move thingy...

 

Killing your enemy's horse army is way better than just being safe from it. If he's smart, he'll realize he can't take London and instead use his army to just stop you from having any other mainland cities. No more mainland cities = very difficult to manage a knight rush.

 

Yes, I knew I had to kill his horses and originally I would've made a warrior army for that, but since I got HBR from a hut, I made my horse army for that purpose. In fact, I used it to make sure I can safely expand and managed to kill 2 more single horses with them on the field, after that he seemed to have given up on horse rushing.

 

 

Did the Arab player take another other caps? Was he having money issues? If he was not so good, then he may have just been taking forever with his horses and when you killed one, decided to play defense instead (bad move). If he was good, he probably had his army off attacking the AI somewhere, figuring he wasn't going to get anywhere attacking the English.

 

He did not take any other caps, although he may have tried. His map was not too good (long peninsula).

 

I'd say your instincts were right. You had knights that could actually win the game for you not long after you made a fairly useless horse army. In a FFA game, you probably wouldn't have gained enough gold off the map to get a barracks and two more knights after spending all that money on an archer army and a horse army. Of course in H2H you can get almost half the barbs most of the time because the AI is so slow, so it's a lot easier to get 200-300 gold to get all that stuff.

 

I'd say your opponent either didn't really know what he was doing or was having a bad game. Even if he wasn't going to get you quickly enough with his horses, he could've at least ambushed your knight army. Arab horses are plenty strong enough to kill English knights. Even worse, he let you expand. As discussed, Arab horsemen are almost useless attacking cities with longbow archers, but an archer or two on the go? They will die easily. How could you send out settlers with Arab horsemen all over the place?

 

I was running around with my own horses protecting the settlers. But he certainly wasn't a top-notch player by far.

 

He could've contained you, taken up the rest of the map and then killed you at his leisure. Instead he is probably taken surprise by your knights when there's no reason he should've been. Let me guess - his cap had an archer army and nothing else in it, right?

 

Pretty close guess :D LOL But in fact, he had a single catapult there as well in addition to the archer army. He managed to get to medieval and rushed a cat by the time I got to him, but it wasn't enough to kill vet knights in forest...

 

I'm thinking a future RevCast topic will be why archer armies are actually worse than single archers. 'Cause they are a lot of the time.

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El-Thrasher sighting, Hurray!

 

Good to see you pop over here too!

 

Yeah, I'm mostly here for RevCast discussion and planning, but I'm happy to use these boards if we can light up some topics. I've also tried to get some discussion going on CivFanatics, but seems like more than half of the posts there are people who don't understand that CivRev isn't Civ IV.

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-Not to put too fine a point on it, but the demographic at this site is definitely different, and the SMAC(X) forum is proof positive that a small group of patient, energetic posters can draw what audience there is out there when they create content and activity.

 

bdanv was barely able to keep the section on life support by himself, but when I joined his efforts in November- well, you can go see for yourself how it's doing. CIV who? This folder is a bigger job; we had a lot more content to build on and more veterans who had already been active there early in the life of the site to lure back, but still, it's doable.

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