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Lancer

"How They Faked Global Warming" [REOPENED: Read post 354]

3,566 posts in this topic

Ok I take it all back. CAGW is very real, and I found proof of El_Cid's extreme weather! From CBS Richmond's weather report for this week:

 

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El_Cid was saying that because he didn't get any cherries this year, that the world's agriculture is failing. That graph shows the logical common sense fact that it is in fact growing very healthily, regardless of alarmist claims that global warming will kill off food production.

 

umm not quite mr drama queen ;)

 

And one issue i see down the line is about food production, our whole agricultural system depends on the weather and insects(bees etc) to function. I didn't get any cherries this year due to an early heat wave that brought out the tree blossom early, which then got storm damaged, so resulted in a very short window for pollination. Added to that was a right mix of very wet/and very hot dry days, one after another, that resulted in a mold issue and black fly infestation on the leave tips.

 

Now that's just a couple of cherry trees. Extrapolate that kind of issue on a global scale around food producing regions and that means you'll have issues,

 

I probably should have put a 'potentialy' like this:

 

'Extrapolate that kind of issue on a global scale around food producing regions and that means you'll potentialy have issues'.

 

But i would have thought my opening sentence was open enough to be read as not being a statement of fact as opposed to asking a question? And of course we are having huge issue with our pollinating bees as we all know. But whatever, feel free to overreact if it makes you feel good :D

 

And i can't use your link clip Dale sadly, so that joke will have to pass me by sadly. But i'll end with asking what has been the temps across the usa recently? Did it result in any difficulties? just saying, it could all just be in my mind of course, and it's probably best to just keep on putting out lots of CO2 ;)

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umm not quite mr drama queen ;)

 

You're the one that said it, not me. You were being the drama queen by saying that the globe will face food problems because you didn't get any cherries. :rolleyes:

 

And i can't use your link clip Dale sadly, so that joke will have to pass me by sadly. But i'll end with asking what has been the temps across the usa recently? Did it result in any difficulties? just saying, it could all just be in my mind of course, and it's probably best to just keep on putting out lots of CO2 ;)

 

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1fUmFVmOjw&feature=player_embedded

 

USA is only 3% of the globe's surface. Australia is about the same, and we've been having a pretty cold time of it recently. When it's hot in one spot, it's cold in another.

 

Oh that's right, you're a cherry picker.

 

HA! See what I did there? :lol:

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So weather is climate? I mean every time I mentioned the cold weather some know it all said weather is not climate. Now that its hot somewhere it is? :confused:

 

;)

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So weather is climate? I mean every time I mentioned the cold weather some know it all said weather is not climate. Now that its hot somewhere it is? :confused:

 

;)

 

Only when the weather goes their way mate, only then. :rolleyes:

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Anyway i saw this article (yes a BBC one Dale ;) ) and thought it could go here as i believe it related to the AGW debate:

 

'Washington DC region swelters after storm cuts power':

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18656648

 

 

Now hang on a sec - while a possible consequence of global warming could be an increased incidence of severe weather, that is far more conjectural than the observed fact that warming is happening, or the conclusion that has been reached by most that said warming is due to human influences. Plus individual instances like this heatwave, however impressive they seem (especially to those who have to live through them, or those whose girlfriends suddenly have to survive without Flipboard for a while because of the power cuts associated with the nuts weather), aren't evidence of anything on a planetary scale.

 

Remember how a winter or two ago the self-same US coast got hit with 'snowmageddon', a record-breaking winter storm? I remember hearing right-wing TV pundits loudly proclaiming that this one event disproved the fact that Earth is warming. Hogwash. Snowmageddon and this heatwave are two extreme points to put on the graph, for sure - but they will most likely be swamped by the majority of points that show average weather. It would be a huge study to show a clear link between extreme weather instances and global warming (which is doubtless being looked into by someone right now), and I'm sure it'd be very hard to make a conclusive link, since hurricanes, storms and heatwaves on a local scale are nothing new.

 

Although, I am curious about what the right and left partisan TV and radio hosts in the US are saying about this heatwave. Is it the reverse now to the Snowmageddon winter - the left saying this is proof whereas the right is not commenting?

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Now hang on a sec - while a possible consequence of global warming could be an increased incidence of severe weather, that is far more conjectural than the observed fact that warming is happening, or the conclusion that has been reached by most that said warming is due to human influences. Plus individual instances like this heatwave, however impressive they seem (especially to those who have to live through them, or those whose girlfriends suddenly have to survive without Flipboard for a while because of the power cuts associated with the nuts weather), aren't evidence of anything on a planetary scale.

 

Remember how a winter or two ago the self-same US coast got hit with 'snowmageddon', a record-breaking winter storm? I remember hearing right-wing TV pundits loudly proclaiming that this one event disproved the fact that Earth is warming. Hogwash. Snowmageddon and this heatwave are two extreme points to put on the graph, for sure - but they will most likely be swamped by the majority of points that show average weather. It would be a huge study to show a clear link between extreme weather instances and global warming (which is doubtless being looked into by someone right now), and I'm sure it'd be very hard to make a conclusive link, since hurricanes, storms and heatwaves on a local scale are nothing new.

 

Although, I am curious about what the right and left partisan TV and radio hosts in the US are saying about this heatwave. Is it the reverse now to the Snowmageddon winter - the left saying this is proof whereas the right is not commenting?

 

Well here's the alarmist view: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120703/D9VP9J681.html

 

Like I said, funny how this weather is 'global warming' whilst the years of very cold winters aren't.

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One can expect extremes of weather as part of global cooling, this localized heat wave is just an anomaly that proves that the cooling is a threat.

 

Turn the mind numbing logic they use back on therm. ;)

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So you're saying it's impossible for global warming to be the cause for colder winters in certain locations?

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So you're saying it's impossible for global warming to be the cause for colder winters in certain locations?

 

Is was only a few years ago that AGW alarmists were preaching how the primary affect of greenhouse warming was that winters get warmer and nights get warmer.

 

Now they get colder?

 

Sorry if I'm a little hesitant to cheer and join the ticker-tape parade when the tune changes so much.

 

Besides, Arctic Oscillation is the cause of biting winters. Even James Hansen (CAGW extremist) says the AO was the cause of the extreme winters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_oscillation

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2012/17jan_missingsnow/

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@ MrWhereItsAt, Dale, Lancer, and all interested.

 

For the record, for about 10 years now (so it will be in evidence in all i've ever posted on the subject at WPC), i've always said that a sign of AGW (global warming) would likely be extreme weather events, more than the normal pattern. This is just based on my personal expereince of the kind of weather i'd been seeing in that time frame compared to what i grew up with as a kid, and had verified by pretty much eveyone i've talked to on the subject that is older than me; as in when you sit down and talk with older people about it they agree things are different now, for the most part (you can try this yourself for you locality even).

 

Most of my expereince from the AGW debate has been along those lines also, i don't really know the more extreme opinions that Dale may be talking about, but i suspect like the extreme opinions that global warming is not happening at all, they are probably quite 'looney'?

 

So on that i count the heatwaves of today (usa) as part of that same issue as the snap super cold winters of a year or so back (uk). They are examples of extreme localised weather events. I'm not a climate sicentist, but like i said it's been my observation of my own personal weather that has lead me to see that this may be part of the AGW effect. What else can it be if not?

 

Weather and global warming are linked, but what the scientists try to explain to the lay person (which can be confusing to said lay people) is that there is not a direct comparitive link between the two, for example the science says we have hotter global temps now but that does not neccesarily mean everyone and at every season will only see hotter temps. This is the area where predicting what AGW will mean is difficult, and the area the anti-AGW likes to confuse people over.

 

And yes the 'quiet' about the heatwave that pretty much crashed the whole east board of the usa, from those that were all noisey about the harsh winters is indeed a clear sign about their agenda (anti-AGW, pro big oil and industry). It is very obvious.

 

They, like most typical 'right-wing' bodies, like to use absolutes (good vs evil/Black or white/hot or cold etc) and don't have time for the complexity of any other possibility. This chimes well with people that don't like to think in complexities themselves, so becomes a good rallying call for, in particular, the right-wing in the usa, which is why much of the anti-AGW movement comes from this quarter, be it via the typical right-wing industries that have a vested interest in CO2 emissions (big oil and big industry etc). That is all very simple to understand and simple to see, if you wish to look.

 

But back to the weather, where are the distinct seasons in the northern hemisphere of western europe gone? What about those daily crazy swings in temps we can get, sometimes over 10 degrees in 24 hours (this isn't so strange in some climates like deserts for example, but certainly nothing i expereinced growing up as a regular occurence). Things are changing at the local level. This might be because of something else.

 

All my remark on the cherry trees (and actually my neighbour (a proper hard core gardener) and myself also now have an issue with a mold outbreak that is killing the leaves of our potatoes, but this is just another real world example of how weather effects crops, nothing more nor less) was about, was that if we see increasing changes in local weather, we will see increasing issues around agriculture. Agriculture completely relies on the weather, and also the insects that fertilise the crop, all these chains of the natural world are part of what is being influenced by AGW. It's just not only about hot OR cold, or more CO2 or less CO2, it's a complex string of interconnected systems of the natural world. Climate change effects all of this.

 

What i'm not doing is the right-wing trick of saying "OK my bad cherry (and potatoes!) means ALL food production will fail". Thats what Dale was saying i was saying, but that is no surprise as he seems completey influenced by that kind of (right) thinking (going on the debate here anyway).

 

What i am saying is these kind of issues may be something we will see more of as the changes i understand to come from AGW get worse or more regular or more constant. It could be mold issues (like i got this year), it could be the bee crisis (like the big agricultural industry in the usa and europe has been finding), it could be a water shortage issue, it could be storm damage at the wrong time, it could be exceptional flooding etc etc. That is all i'm saying here. It could be an issue going forward if we do nothing about global warming. No absolutes (i like to think complex, i understand the world is complex), but for sure we can see lots of indicators that things are changing and that means 'cause and effect', it's as simple as that.

 

Anyway i hope that puts whatever issue got Dales knickers in a twist about the darn cherry trees (and hey it's POTATOES also now! crickey mate, better hug a Koala before you blow your top over that!!!) ;)

 

Oh and cheers Dale for the direct link to the 'Godzilla' forcast mate - very droll, although the larva fires thing looks a little close for comfort to all those troubled by the wildfires recently!

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

'Climate 'causes leaves to narrow':

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18674808

 

"Leaves are getting narrower on some plant species as a result of changes to the climate, a study has suggested.

 

A team of Australian researchers studies specimens from the wild and from herbarium collections stretching back more than 120 years.

 

Analysis of the herbarium samples found that leaf width had decreased by two millimetres.

 

The findings of the study, described as the first of its kind, appear in the Royal Society journal Biology Letters.

 

Lead author, Greg Guerin, from the University of Adelaide, said the team chose narrow-leaf hopbush (Dodonaea viscosa subsp. angustissima) as it appeared to display different leaf characteristics in different climates.

 

"We followed this up by examining exciting herbarium collections before beginning to gather [field] data," he told BBC News.

 

The researchers looked at more than 250 herbarium specimens collected from one region: Flinders Ranges, southern Australia's largest mountain range.

 

Dr Guerin observed: "Historical herbarium collections provide immediate access to wide sampling throughout a geographic region and through time.

 

"You just can't replicate that kind of sampling, covering hundreds of kilometres... from one region over 130 years."

 

To support this data, the team gathered 274 field samples from a mountain, collecting specimens at every 50m drop in altitude.

 

"This gave us information on variation within populations and the local influence of altitude on leaf shape and size," Dr Guerin explained.

 

The analysis revealed a two-millimetre decrease in leaf width over 127 years across the region.

 

Between 1950 and 2005, the team added, there had been a 1.5C (2.7F) increase in the maximum temperatures in the region but there had been little change in rainfall patterns.

Next steps

 

Dr Guerin said: "The next step is to test whether similar patterns are emerging in other species and in other regions."

 

He acknowledged that because the study was the first of its kind, there was no comparable data at this stage.

 

"We chose a likely candidate species - one that appeared to vary in leaf shape with latitude - but given that the first species we tested revealed strong change over time, it may well be that similar shifts are occurring more widely."

 

Dr Guerin said that the shift in leaf shapes could, in some cases, have wider ecological consequences.

 

"The study is a new example of significant climate change responses to date," he said.

 

"We now know that every degree of warming is ecologically significant and generating ecological disequilibrium.

 

"There is some good news here in that some Australian plant species may have the potential to respond to and cope with increasing temperatures."

 

But he warned that other species might be less well suited to adapt.

 

"These species may rely more heavily on tracking favourable climate through migration.

 

"A recent study by a student in our group (the Andy Lowe laboratory) looked at the climate change sensitivity of a habitat-restricted plant species endemic to the same Flinders Ranges region in South Australia.

 

"The species had low adaptive capacity because of a combination of low genetic diversity and small, isolated populations.

 

"This is a problem because its current climate niche is predicted to shrink over this century."

 

-----------------------------

 

A couple of links in the article proper :)

 

Edit: and i just found a couple of older links about the effect on a changing climate could have on agriculture:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13297004

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15721263

 

Just to further illustrate what i'm talking about here.

Edited by El_Cid

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From the wiki article:

However, the correlation between sharply negative Arctic Oscillations and excessive winter cold and snow in regions vulnerable in that way to these negative AOs should not be overstated. It is by no means a simple, one-to-one equivalence. An extreme Arctic Oscillation does not necessarily mean extreme weather will occur.

 

From the BBC article (which also mentions the Arctic Oscillations):

"We don't see a predictive relationship with any of the other factors that have been proposed, such as El Nino; but for sea ice, we do see a predictive relationship."

 

And really, turning my honest question into "AGW alarmist preaching" and "ticker-tape parades"? You must be mistaken me for someone else...

 

This is just basic science to me, we observing something (colder winters), existing theories (AO) are apparently not accuracte enough, so we try explain what we osbserve using other means. They end up looking at the arctic sea ice extent as a possible explanation, yet none of it is presented as undisputed fact, just as an area that could in the future help understand the weather.

 

This doesn't even have to be about AGW and all the things you hate about it... so honestly, i don't understand your knee-jerk reaction here.

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@ MrWhereItsAt, Dale, Lancer, and all interested.

 

For the record, for about 10 years now (so it will be in evidence in all i've ever posted on the subject at WPC), i've always said that a sign of AGW (global warming) would likely be extreme weather events, more than the normal pattern. This is just based on my personal expereince of the kind of weather i'd been seeing in that time frame compared to what i grew up with as a kid, and had verified by pretty much eveyone i've talked to on the subject that is older than me; as in when you sit down and talk with older people about it they agree things are different now, for the most part (you can try this yourself for you locality even).

 

Were all those people (I already know you're not a climate scientist) who agreed with your conclusion climate scientists? Or were they just people sitting around a bar having a yarn?

 

So on that i count the heatwaves of today (usa) as part of that same issue as the snap super cold winters of a year or so back (uk). They are examples of extreme localised weather events. I'm not a climate sicentist, but like i said it's been my observation of my own personal weather that has lead me to see that this may be part of the AGW effect. What else can it be if not?

 

When actual scientists (not media, NGO's or greenies) publish studies saying there is no conclusive link between the weather events of the past 10 years and the AGW hypothesis, and then are able to link them to natural cycles, there is no logical basis to instantly call any extreme weather event global warming. Scientists themselves have said it takes 10-12 months to analyse the data from the weather event to find the cause of it. Which means, anything you read now that says last week's weather is "what global warming will look like", or "last week was a window on the future of global warming", is just pure and utter left-wing bull.

 

Weather and global warming are linked, but what the scientists try to explain to the lay person (which can be confusing to said lay people) is that there is not a direct comparitive link between the two, for example the science says we have hotter global temps now but that does not neccesarily mean everyone and at every season will only see hotter temps. This is the area where predicting what AGW will mean is difficult, and the area the anti-AGW likes to confuse people over.

 

Yes, weather and climate are linked. Climate dictates the TREND of weather, and when all data shows there is no changing trend to weather events, there is no other conclusion but global warming is most likely not the cause of extreme weather events.

 

And yes the 'quiet' about the heatwave that pretty much crashed the whole east board of the usa, from those that were all noisey about the harsh winters is indeed a clear sign about their agenda (anti-AGW, pro big oil and industry). It is very obvious.

 

You're looking in the wrong spots then.

 

They, like most typical 'right-wing' bodies, like to use absolutes (good vs evil/Black or white/hot or cold etc) and don't have time for the complexity of any other possibility. This chimes well with people that don't like to think in complexities themselves, so becomes a good rallying call for, in particular, the right-wing in the usa, which is why much of the anti-AGW movement comes from this quarter, be it via the typical right-wing industries that have a vested interest in CO2 emissions (big oil and big industry etc). That is all very simple to understand and simple to see, if you wish to look.

 

Blah blah blah where's my coal cheque?

 

But back to the weather, where are the distinct seasons in the northern hemisphere of western europe gone? What about those daily crazy swings in temps we can get, sometimes over 10 degrees in 24 hours (this isn't so strange in some climates like deserts for example, but certainly nothing i expereinced growing up as a regular occurence). Things are changing at the local level. This might be because of something else.

 

You're calling a cool change global warming now? :lol:

 

All my remark on the cherry trees (and actually my neighbour (a proper hard core gardener) and myself also now have an issue with a mold outbreak that is killing the leaves of our potatoes, but this is just another real world example of how weather effects crops, nothing more nor less) was about, was that if we see increasing changes in local weather, we will see increasing issues around agriculture. Agriculture completely relies on the weather, and also the insects that fertilise the crop, all these chains of the natural world are part of what is being influenced by AGW. It's just not only about hot OR cold, or more CO2 or less CO2, it's a complex string of interconnected systems of the natural world. Climate change effects all of this.

 

What i'm not doing is the right-wing trick of saying "OK my bad cherry (and potatoes!) means ALL food production will fail". Thats what Dale was saying i was saying, but that is no surprise as he seems completey influenced by that kind of (right) thinking (going on the debate here anyway).

 

What i am saying is these kind of issues may be something we will see more of as the changes i understand to come from AGW get worse or more regular or more constant. It could be mold issues (like i got this year), it could be the bee crisis (like the big agricultural industry in the usa and europe has been finding), it could be a water shortage issue, it could be storm damage at the wrong time, it could be exceptional flooding etc etc. That is all i'm saying here. It could be an issue going forward if we do nothing about global warming. No absolutes (i like to think complex, i understand the world is complex), but for sure we can see lots of indicators that things are changing and that means 'cause and effect', it's as simple as that.

 

Anyway i hope that puts whatever issue got Dales knickers in a twist about the darn cherry trees (and hey it's POTATOES also now! crickey mate, better hug a Koala before you blow your top over that!!!) ;)

 

Let's read what you actually said in post #3245: Now that's just a couple of cherry trees. Extrapolate that kind of issue on a global scale around food producing regions and that means you'll have issues

 

Extrapolate: to extend conclusion from sample to broad generality. In other words, you base your conclusion for the world on the result of your cherry trees. Like I said, YOU were the one that said based on your cherry trees the whole world's agriculture is cactus. :rolleyes:

 

From the wiki article:

 

 

From the BBC article (which also mentions the Arctic Oscillations):

 

 

And really, turning my honest question into "AGW alarmist preaching" and "ticker-tape parades"? You must be mistaken me for someone else...

 

This is just basic science to me, we observing something (colder winters), existing theories (AO) are apparently not accuracte enough, so we try explain what we osbserve using other means. They end up looking at the arctic sea ice extent as a possible explanation, yet none of it is presented as undisputed fact, just as an area that could in the future help understand the weather.

 

This doesn't even have to be about AGW and all the things you hate about it... so honestly, i don't understand your knee-jerk reaction here.

 

The preaching and ticker-tape parades were in relation to the AGW alarmist's crowing about how the recent weather in the US is proof of global warming. It's like they are celebrating and bragging about it. It was not a direct comment to yourself.

 

If you read the NASA link I provided they discuss that other natural cycles also plays a large part in US/EU weather. It appears recent winters were simply a lining up of certain natural cycles to cause an extremity.

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.............(A lot of same-old stuff, been there, discused it, not needed to go back over AGAIN etc(no really it has been, i even made a humumgous post for your benefit a while back going over a whole range of issues about style of our posts and meaning etc and said i would only do it once))..........

 

The preaching and ticker-tape parades were in relation to the AGW alarmist's crowing about how the recent weather in the US is proof of global warming. It's like they are celebrating and bragging about it. It was not a direct comment to yourself.

 

Actualy i haven't seen anyone crowing about that? Even your hated BBC has not made any such claims, which if i was to view the BBC as you do, i'd find strange, surely an opportunity lost to further the one world government where we the people all live in caves (or something)?

 

What i have seen is most of the usa media that jumped all over the extra cold winters as 'definately being signs that global warming is all hog wash' (you can find news broadcasts on you tube from FOX around that time iirc), are now completely absent from making comments in relation to global warming. It's just, like, a hot day you know? happens all the time.

 

Oh really? Tell that to Uno facing the prospect of wildfire, or Zargon X losing his electricity supply etc. This is NOT saying wildfires never happend before or power cuts (i need to say this to avoid the expected version of my meaning you will give back to me ;) ). Is that possible to process, it's not a black or white thing? (as Lemmy alludes to).

 

I expect we will all have to get used to these type of issues as more frequent events in our lives. I've been saying that kind of thing for over a decade now, i'm not happy about seeing it, or happy at the prospect of more. But from the crazy cold arse winter of 2009/10 in the uk, to the crazy summer peak temps of +30 degress in the uk, these are just part of the future going forward, and i suspect things to get even more extreme down the line. That concern is what is behind the AGW debate and why most of the worlds scientists, those that form the concensus on the issue and advise governments and industry and all that (so not me and some blokes in a pub, nice deflection btw), are making people aware of the issues ahead, and seeking solutions.

 

That is really all there is to it Dale. But feel free to go on about my cherry trees, and you forgot to mention my and my neighbours potatoe mold issue! Trying to simply ridicule the 'messenger' is such a typical right-wing(junk press) tactic i'm completely immune to it, and see right through it as soon as it happens. You prove nothing by doing it. But stick to the bit i bolded for you and there is a conversation to carry on here :)

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In the uk we have a different issue to the heat of the usa currently, rain! (shock! ;) ):

 

'UK braced for further severe flooding':

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18722054

 

"Experts are warning of floods in many parts of the UK, with a month's rain due to fall in 24 hours.

 

The Environment Agency has urged 86 communities in England and Wales - mainly in east and north-east England - to be vigilant.

 

It warns flooding could be the worst of the year so far and heavy rain has already begun to hit parts of East Anglia and the East Midlands.

 

The Met Office has issued an amber warning urging people to "be prepared".

 

Two bands of heavy rain are expected to hit on Friday and early Saturday, with transport links and properties potentially affected.

 

Yorkshire, the North East of England, the Midlands, East Anglia and the northern half of Wales are expected to bear the brunt of the downpours.

 

BBC forecaster Peter Sloss said parts of Cambridgeshire and Essex would be affected first, before the rain tracked northwards.

 

Between 20mm to 40mm of rain is expected to fall in central and northern areas of England.

 

He added that the worst-hit places at the epicentre of the front could see 60mm of rain, the average monthly fall for July.

 

By Friday evening the low pressure, which is bringing the rain, is expected to have drifted further west, with rain easing across the Midlands, northern England and much of Wales.

 

But there will be the risk of some prolonged rainfall for south-west England later on Friday.

 

The Scottish Environment Protection Agency has issued flood alerts in Tayside as well as Ayrshire and Arran.

 

There is no flood warning system in Northern Ireland although the Met Office has issued a yellow warning - urging people to be aware - for its south-eastern tip.

 

The Environment Agency's Pete Fox told BBC Breakfast that some local authorities would be able to provide sandbags to concerned householders.

 

"That's one of a number of things they can do - not least move their car to higher ground as well as valuables and sentimental items like photographs and family albums which you can't replace - people really need to think ahead," he added.

 

He said a "rut of low pressures" seemed to "go on and on" after flooding in south-west England, West Sussex, Aberystwyth and the Pennines in recent weeks.

 

The alerts covered large parts of England and Wales, with five million homes deemed to be at risk of flooding, he added.

 

The "immediate concern" on Friday morning was for the north Midlands and the Pennines.

 

He said that, as the rain landed, the agency would be using its monitoring stations and river gauging stations to predict more specifically where the weather would be worst.

 

"We don't want people to worry right now but we want people to take a look at our website to work out if they are at risk of flooding," he added.

 

The Environment Agency has opened incident rooms and has teams out checking on flood defences and clearing any blockages to reduce risks as much as possible.

 

Meanwhile, the Prince of Wales will visit Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, later to see how homes and businesses have recovered from flooding after a month's rain fell in 24 hours on 22 June.

 

The prince will see how his Business in the Community charity has helped small businesses to get back on their feet after 500 homes and business premises in Hebden Bridge, Todmorden and Mytholmroyd were flooded.

 

The latest flood warnings follow the UK's wettest June since records began in 1910, according to provisional Met Office figures.

 

BBC Weather's Chris Fawkes said that, for the last three months, the UK had found itself underneath an accelerating part of the 6-mile high Jet Stream - a fast wind blowing around the planet.

 

An accelerating Jet Stream causes air to rise upwards through the atmosphere and creates low pressure centres and a greater likelihood of rain, he said.

Flash flooding

 

Over the weekend, further heavy rain is forecast for parts of northern England and central and southern Scotland which will again introduce the risk of localised flooding.

 

On Friday morning, the day's horse racing at Warwick was abandoned because of a waterlogged track.

 

There has already been severe flooding in parts of County Down in Northern Ireland.

 

Parts of Durham were affected by flash flooding on Thursday afternoon, causing some road closures.

 

Bridges in Whorlton and Kinninvie, near Barnard Castle, were closed, with both Whorlton bridges closed until structural assessments had been carried out.

 

In Scotland, a major road junction in Ayrshire - on the A77 Glasgow to Ayr road - was affected."

 

-----------------------------------

 

I've always ensured i live on high-ground (or not flood planes) and for many years check the local flooding conditions, so i'll be fine, but sucks to be the people caught out that bought properties in flood planes, this is becoming a near yearly issue for them (and they can't sell to move on!) :(

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Crikes, sounds bad - a little like that heatwave they had in southern europe a few years back?

 

'US record heatwave leaves dozens dead':

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18758667

 

"At least 42 people have died in a heatwave that has brought soaring temperatures to a dozen US states from the Midwest to the East Coast.

 

Crops shrivelled and roads and railway lines buckled in the heat.

 

Hundreds of records fell across the affected area on Friday and Saturday, but the heat was expected to ease slightly on Sunday.

 

Severe storms are expected to follow. Many homes in the region are still without power after storms a week ago.

 

Media reports say many of the deaths were of elderly people stuck in homes without air conditioning because of the outages.

 

Ten deaths in Chicago were blamed on the heat, and at least 10 each in the eastern states of Virginia and Maryland.

 

Three each died in Wisconsin, Ohio and Pennsylvania, and two in Tennessee.

 

A four-month-old girl died after being left in a car for "an extended period" outside her home in Greenfield, Indiana.

 

On Saturday temperatures reached 105F (41C) in Washington DC - just short of the hottest ever recorded in the city - and 107F (46C) in St Louis, Missouri, which also extended its record for consecutive days over 100F to 10.

 

"It's hotter than hell," tourist John Ghio, visiting the White House, told Reuters news agency.

 

"Too hot," said Chinese tourist Xiao Duan, 30, who was also visiting Washington.

 

"My father says it's like we're being burned by flames."

 

High temperatures have also hit parts of Canada, with temperatures on Friday breaking 11 daily records in Ontario.

 

Hundreds of thousands of people in West Virginia, Virginia, Ohio, New Jersey, Maryland and Indiana are still enduring power outages caused by storms that swept through the area one week ago.

 

A number of cities have opened cooling centres and extended opening hours for public swimming pools.

 

Some communities are offering meals to residents whose food has spoiled after their refrigerators stopped working.

 

Officials in Chicago cancelled summer schools classes in 21 buildings without air conditioning because of the heat.

 

The heat there buckled a major road, cracking and bulging part of Columbus Drive by 5in (12cm).

 

Cooler weather is said to be on the way for northern parts of the Midwest, although strong storms could accompany the lower temperatures."

 

--------------------------------

 

Hope any guys here from that area or have family in that area are all ok :(

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And i did a little looking around to see who might be saying what around all, and to my surprise (and Fox News credit) i found this article:

 

'This summer is 'what global warming looks like':

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/03/this-us-summer-is-what-global-warming-looks-like/

 

"WASHINGTON – Is it just freakish weather or something more? Climate scientists suggest that if you want a glimpse of some of the worst of global warming, take a look at U.S. weather in recent weeks.

 

Horrendous wildfires. Oppressive heat waves. Devastating droughts. Flooding from giant deluges. And a powerful freak wind storm called a derecho.

 

These are the kinds of extremes experts have predicted will come with climate change, although it's far too early to say that is the cause. Nor will they say global warming is the reason 3,215 daily high temperature records were set in the month of June.

 

Scientifically linking individual weather events to climate change takes intensive study, complicated mathematics, computer models and lots of time. Sometimes it isn't caused by global warming. Weather is always variable; freak things happen.

 

And this weather has been local. Europe, Asia and Africa aren't having similar disasters now, although they've had their own extreme events in recent years.

 

But since at least 1988, climate scientists have warned that climate change would bring, in general, increased heat waves, more droughts, more sudden downpours, more widespread wildfires and worsening storms. In the United States, those extremes are happening here and now.

 

So far this year, more than 2.1 million acres have burned in wildfires, more than 113 million people in the U.S. were in areas under extreme heat advisories last Friday, two-thirds of the country is experiencing drought, and earlier in June, deluges flooded Minnesota and Florida.

 

"This is what global warming looks like at the regional or personal level," said Jonathan Overpeck, professor of geosciences and atmospheric sciences at the University of Arizona. "The extra heat increases the odds of worse heat waves, droughts, storms and wildfire. This is certainly what I and many other climate scientists have been warning about."

 

Kevin Trenberth, head of climate analysis at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in fire-charred Colorado, said these are the very record-breaking conditions he has said would happen, but many people wouldn't listen. So it's I told-you-so time, he said.

 

As recently as March, a special report an extreme events and disasters by the Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change warned of "unprecedented extreme weather and climate events." Its lead author, Chris Field of the Carnegie Institution and Stanford University, said Monday, "It's really dramatic how many of the patterns that we've talked about as the expression of the extremes are hitting the U.S. right now."

 

"What we're seeing really is a window into what global warming really looks like," said Princeton University geosciences and international affairs professor Michael Oppenheimer. "It looks like heat. It looks like fires. It looks like this kind of environmental disasters."

 

Oppenheimer said that on Thursday. That was before the East Coast was hit with triple-digit temperatures and before a derecho — a large, powerful and long-lasting straight-line wind storm — blew from Chicago to Washington. The storm and its aftermath killed more than 20 people and left millions without electricity. Experts say it had energy readings five times that of normal thunderstorms.

 

Fueled by the record high heat, this was among the strongest of this type of storm in the region in recent history, said research meteorologist Harold Brooks of the National Severe Storm Laboratory in Norman, Okla. Scientists expect "non-tornadic wind events" like this one and other thunderstorms to increase with climate change because of the heat and instability, he said.

 

Such patterns haven't happened only in the past week or two. The spring and winter in the U.S. were the warmest on record and among the least snowy, setting the stage for the weather extremes to come, scientists say.

 

Since Jan. 1, the United States has set more than 40,000 hot temperature records, but fewer than 6,000 cold temperature records, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Through most of last century, the U.S. used to set cold and hot records evenly, but in the first decade of this century America set two hot records for every cold one, said Jerry Meehl, a climate extreme expert at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. This year the ratio is about 7 hot to 1 cold. Some computer models say that ratio will hit 20-to-1 by midcentury, Meehl said.

 

"In the future you would expect larger, longer more intense heat waves and we've seen that in the last few summers," NOAA Climate Monitoring chief Derek Arndt said.

 

The 100-degree heat, drought, early snowpack melt and beetles waking from hibernation early to strip trees all combined to set the stage for the current unusual spread of wildfires in the West, said University of Montana ecosystems professor Steven Running, an expert on wildfires.

 

While at least 15 climate scientists told The Associated Press that this long hot U.S. summer is consistent with what is to be expected in global warming, history is full of such extremes, said John Christy at the University of Alabama in Huntsville. He's a global warming skeptic who says, "The guilty party in my view is Mother Nature."

 

But the vast majority of mainstream climate scientists, such as Meehl, disagree: "This is what global warming is like, and we'll see more of this as we go into the future."

 

----------------------------

 

What they do fail to mention specificaly is that it is all extreme weather events, so those near record cold winters of recent years, hail stones the size of baseballs (had some of those across eastern france recently), severe flooding (uk, russia) etc. This is here and now, is it too late already to do anything about it?

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Until you can provide actual science to counter the multitude of observational data that shows no increase or decrease in different extreme weather events (which I have posted numerous times in this thread), your words are pure leftist propaganda.

 

Here's a new one which shows the number of "record daily maximums per year". Where's the claimed hockey stick El_Cid?

screenhunter_68-jul-08-13-26.jpg

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But feel free to go on about my cherry trees

 

Hey, you were the one that extrapolated your cherry tree analysis to the world (that since your cherry trees didn't have fruit, extrapolating that across the world spells disaster). But, since Michael Mann did that with his hockey stick (extrapolating a couple tree rings from the Yamal region across the world), it's ok. You're in good company. ;)

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I doubt your denial is much comfort to many people right now Dale ;) And 'my words' where actually a copy/paste from a Fox News source (the shame, how to live with the shame!).

 

Actually this article could have gone in the environmental concerns, but it also has some relevance here (just to show how rich wealthy industrialists have an agenda to keep getting rich, no matter the cost to the rest of us). I also find it interesting in that in the australian media, you have Fox etc (Murdoch) on the right wing, and Fairfax.....on the right wing. Yikes, no wonder the bias from that part of the world!

 

'Gina Rinehart: The world's 'richest woman':

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18624350

 

"The richest woman in the world, according to a respected business magazine, is not Oprah Winfrey, Queen Elizabeth II or L'Oreal heiress Liliane Bettencourt. It's a relatively unknown Australian mining magnate. So who exactly is Gina Rinehart?

 

Asked once to sum up her concept of beauty, Gina Rinehart did not point to the pearls that so often adorn her neck.

 

Nor did she rhapsodise about the ochre landscape of her beloved Pilbara, a beautiful, if unforgiving, expanse of land in the northwest corner of Australia.

 

Instead, she spoke of the unlovely commodity that has made her family rich, and the giant holes in the ground from where it came. "Beauty is an iron mine," she famously remarked.

 

When her father, Lang Hancock, discovered one of the world's biggest reserves in the early 1950s, the export of iron ore was banned in Australia because it was deemed such a scarce and finite resource.

 

Tens of thousands of iron ore shipments later, royalty payments from that Pilbara mining field in Western Australia continue to swell her coffers.

 

The Hancocks were not the sole beneficiaries. The multi-billionaire fervently believes that her father's discovery also made Australia prosperous, which partly drives her recent quest for influence, gratitude and respect.

 

It is partly borne of a lifelong sense of grievance - that Australia's traditional east coast elites have not recognised her family's contribution to the country's development, nor the local media.

 

With an estimated net personal wealth of $A29 billion ($US29.3bn, £18.79bn), Rinehart has in recent years gone from being Australia's richest woman to Asia's richest woman to arguably the world's.

 

Australian business magazine BRW has named her the world's wealthiest woman, and Citigroup has also predicted that the 58-year-old businesswoman will soon top the global rich list, with more than $100bn (£64.8bn) of assets to her name.

 

Gina Rinehart is said to make nearly A$600 (£393) a second

 

The royalty stream from that initial discovery - the "rivers of the gold," as it has been called - still contributes to her wealth, but it pales alongside the value attached to her mining interests in Western Australia and Queensland.

 

She hates being called a mining heiress because she considers herself a self-made businesswoman who turned her company around after her father's death in 1992.

 

From a worldwide perspective, her spiralling wealth illustrates the shift in economic activity from the west to the east. From an Australian one, she embodies the shift from the east to the west. Once it was media moguls like the late Kerry Packer who topped the Australian rich lists. Now it is minerals magnates who are profiting from the country's China-fuelled resources boom.

 

Rinehart has set out to become both a magnate and a mogul, which is why she is the subject of so much attention and controversy.

 

Along with her mining interests, she now owns a share of Channel Ten, one of the three major commercial television networks, and has also become the single biggest shareholder in Australia's second largest newspaper group, Fairfax Media, although she reduced the size of that stake last week.

 

The group publishes three of the country's most venerable mastheads - the Sydney Morning Herald, the Melbourne Age and the Australian Financial Review, and the suspicion among many Fairfax journalists is that she will attempt to turn them into mouthpieces for her right-wing views.

 

The dark joke is that the Sydney Morning Herald might become the Sydney Mining Herald. However, she has not been able to gain seats on the board because of a dispute about her refusal so far to accept the group's declaration of editorial independence.

 

Her mining company, Hancock Prospecting, is essentially her life. She has few outside interests. She does not go in for the normal blandishments of wealth, like art, racehorses or a private plane.

 

She is renowned for her 24/7 work regime, and a tunnel-visioned determination. Her personal feuds are the stuff of legend and her long list of adversaries has included her father, his business partner, her first husband, her Filipino mother-in-law, Rose Porteous, and now three of her children.

 

Famously litigious, many of her battles have ended up in court. "Whatever I do, the house of Hancock comes first," she once told a reporter. "Nothing will stand in the way of that."

 

Like her rambunctious father Lang, who railed against the scourge of "Canberra-ism," and "eco-nuts" in the environmental movement, her political views are a blend of conservatism and libertarianism.

 

An early heroine was Britain's Iron Lady, Margaret Thatcher, whom she met over lunch in 1977. Afterwards, the young Gina took much more care to dress in a business-like fashion, got a new hairdresser and started to wear more make-up.

 

Another intellectual hero was the free-market economist Milton Friedman. One of the reasons she cited for raising her children in the US, aside from her marriage to the Harvard-educated Frank Rinehart, was the hope that they might be taught by Friedman.

 

She is also a climate change sceptic, and close to the British Viscount, Christopher Monckton. On a visit to Perth last July, during which he delivered the Lang Hancock Memorial Lecture, Monckton spoke of Australia's need for an equivalent of Fox News, which could be funded by the "super-rich".

 

Rinehart was not present at the private meeting, but few doubted the identity of the "super-rich" person whom Monckton had in mind. When a video of his remarks was posted online, it heightened speculation that she was pursuing some kind of Foxification strategy in Australia.

 

I have also been told by one of her associates that she met Rupert Murdoch earlier this year, partly to discuss Fox News.

 

Given that the newspapers published by Rupert Murdoch's Australian arm, News Ltd, boast a 70% share of Australian readership, and that Fairfax has the remaining 30%, the widespread fear is of a conservative duopoly, and an end to editorial pluralism.

 

Rinehart's $A165m (£107m) stake in Channel Ten has already lost more than half its value and Fairfax, which last week announced 1900 job cuts, is not seen as a particularly attractive investment. Like her father, who started two newspapers, the profit motive is not a major consideration. Her investment, it is thought, is about political influence.

 

Besides, the amount of money involved is for her comparatively small. As an associate recently explained to me, she is adopting the same approach that the super-rich use when purchasing luxury yachts or private planes, which is not to invest more than 10% of their wealth.

 

In her ongoing drive for influence, the debate two years ago over the Labor government's plans to hit the mining sector with a super profits tax was a major milestone.

 

Unusually for a woman who has preferred to exert a behind-the-scenes influence, Rinehart led the chant of "axe the tax" at a protest rally in 2010 aimed at the then Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.

 

Her billionaire activism lent itself to easy caricature. A reporter from the Fairfax-owned WA Today joked that it was possible to hear her gold bracelet jangling "a note-perfect version of 'Money, Money, Money' as she pumped her fist". Within weeks, however, Rudd had been ousted, and his successor, Julia Gillard, immediately announced a climbdown over the mining tax.

 

Just as Rinehart wants influence and gratitude, she is also determined to maintain rigid control of her company. Presently, she is locked in a highly-publicised legal battle with three of her four children over a family trust set up by Lang Hancock for his grandchildren.

 

The trust, which owns a share of her company, was due to settle its assets last September, when Lang's youngest grandchild, Ginia, turned 25. But Rinehart allegedly tried to push back the date that her children could become trustees until 2068.

 

Determined to retain sole control, she warned her children they faced ruin if they refused to bend to her will. "Sign up or be bankrupt tomorrow," she threatened in an email. "The clock is ticking. There is one hour to bankruptcy and financial ruin."

 

Her three eldest children described the manoeuvre as "deceptive, manipulative, hopelessly conflicted and disgraceful". It is not so much about greed. Rinehart offered her three estranged children big payments to go along with her plan. It is more about control.

 

Commentators expect the same aggressive approach with her media strategy. After all, Australia's richest ever person is used to getting her own way."

 

-----------------------------------

 

Just as in the usa, the government is a servant of the super rich (the article about the republican push to weaken the bill around better control of the financial sector in the 'Can you love the banking system' thread an example of this issue), i wonder if it is exactly the same in Australia now also? And funny how it is always these type of right-wing people pushing the anti-AGW line, or maybe not surprising at all.

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I doubt your denial is much comfort to many people right now Dale ;) And 'my words' where actually a copy/paste from a Fox News source (the shame, how to live with the shame!).

 

Re-read #3245 again mate. They were your words, about your trees, extrapolating your conclusion. ;)

 

Actually this article could have gone in the environmental concerns, but it also has some relevance here (just to show how rich wealthy industrialists have an agenda to keep getting rich, no matter the cost to the rest of us). I also find it interesting in that in the australian media, you have Fox etc (Murdoch) on the right wing, and Fairfax.....on the right wing. Yikes, no wonder the bias from that part of the world!

 

You need to do some more research on AU media dude. You are pretty wrong in your assumption. :rolleyes:

 

Here's an interesting study (http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/MediaSlant.pdf) that found there was no political slant in Australian media except in the case of the ABC (Govt paid for propaganda channel). That was in 2009. Not surprisingly, the ABC had a slant to the right (they were in power). Nowadays, the ABC (Australia's biggest media outlet) has a slant to the left, not surprisingly since the left is now in power). Apart from that, the only REAL change is seen at Fairfax (The Age & Sydney Morning Herald) who employed an extremely leftist Green's editor. That outlet veered hard left and is where it is now, a "Greenie haven". Fox may have veered to the right, but it's by no means a hard right position like Fairfax went hard left.

 

So on the left you have the ABC, hard left Fairfax, and the right you have News Limited. And even if Fairfax joined News on the right (if Gina gets control of the Board which is not very likely since the left heavy Govt will hit her with their new media bill) the ABC still far outweighs the right.

 

Besides Gina's right. The Govt reminds us every second day how the mining sector boom is making Australia prosperous (and should be taxed to hell).

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How scientists conduct global warming research:

 

http://www.arcticrow.com/

 

A team of greenies is going to row (wait, I'll copy paste it directly from their website so I don't get it wrong), "the first, non-stop, unsupported row across the Arctic Ocean". From Canada to Russia, ACROSS the Arctic Ocean! Wow, through the ice cap?

 

No....... here's the laughable bit.

 

They are going from Inuvik Canada to Provideniya Russia. Here's the route:

route.jpg

 

"Across the Arctic Ocean" means something different to me.

 

Oh, and they'll also be studying if krill numbers are half what they used to be 50 years ago (even though those claims are thoroughly proven incorrect). But how does one count krill?

 

I hope none of those extinct polar bears get them on their short, easy coastal row that locals have been doing for thousands of years in skin kayaks. ;)

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