Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 39 of 39

Thread: Deciding whether to have children?Check this out once....

  1. #21
    Monarch Wezil's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fake London
    Posts
    1,833
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Your "rewards" are all things that can not be measured. Different people will place different values on them. The costs however can be measured...
    I don't play Civ - Civ2 Veteran (Ret.)

  2. #22
    Emperor
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    4,850
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    The 'cost'/'reward' for children have another greater return-grandkids. Maybe raising the kids can be difficult at times, but it is rewarding (to me) to see your kids grow up and to start families of their own.

  3. #23
    女士
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,207
    Downloads
    3
    Uploads
    1

    Default

    Wezil is right. The rewards are primarily intangible. This does not make them any less real, but it does make them very hard to quantify.

    It also makes it rather hard to plan for. Especially if you're like me and you have very little patience for noisy dogs and children alike.

  4. #24

    Default

    It is sad that in the developed world, where we are suposed to have a certain freedom of choice, it is often the 'economics' that decide when and where you might start a family.

    I got many things from my time in papua new guinea, one of them was the realisation that in our part of the world we are all, most of us, really just glorified slaves of one form or another - usualy a slave to money.

    in png over 90% of the people are free from that - kids and family is just the most important element of their lives and they just get on with it, and they have pleanty of support around them in terms of helping raise the kids etc.

    Ok they dont have the option to jump on a jet and fly business class to where ever, but at the same time all the worries and concerns we have in our lives(centered around the flow of money) just do not factor into the average papuan's life.

    In some ways it's a very enviable life they lead, once you can drop your materialistic outlook for a few moments and enter their world.

    Having said that there are trade off's. You cant function as a pure individual in a tribal society, it's like constantly being in a sports team(to put it in terms some of us can better understand), and while that is rewarding and fun, it can also be a little claustrophobic sometimes. But overall i think we could all learn alot from the tribes folk of papua new guinea, about life in general and what really is important and what isnt.

    It's a shame our 'love of money' puts such a strain on our families and our own relationships, but our governements need our taxes to carry on coming, so we are all born part of the machine.(cue; listen to pink floyd's 'welcome to the machine' and for a nice contrast any rage against the machine )
    formerly known as child of Thor(coT) in the CTP2 section of poly.

  5. #25
    女士
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,207
    Downloads
    3
    Uploads
    1

    Default

    I don't think it's fair to say the developed nations necessarily have greater greed than undeveloped ones. I've been doing some thinking about this, and my hypothesis is this:

    In nations like Malaysia, the Phillippines (or however the heck it's spelled), and other developing nations with a relatively pleasant geographical location, you can actually be relatively poor and still live a bearable existence. Even without much in the way of monetary possessions, it's still relatively easy to subsist and even enjoy the beauty of the place you live. If you have a roof over your head and a fishing pole in your possession, you have a place to sleep and something to eat if you need it.

    In America, however, the institutions all support a middle class existence. They specifically exclude the poor and the very lower class. If you're poor, then credit buying (a major financial institution) is closed to you. Often, even checking accounts are unavailable, meaning that you can't access your money without paying a fee in between. To get from A to B you are going to need a car because American public transportation lags far behind most nations' - but cars are a major expense that few lower class families can enjoy (a recurring theme in my reporting of working poor families was the collapse of their work routine because their car got repossessed). The natural resources of the nation are such that recreational places are generally owned by something or somebody, and food resources likewise belong to somebody. You can't just go to the ocean, river, or forest and simply catch your next meal.

    Because of all these societal penalties for the poor, Americans (especially) have a huge incentive to work hard and earn money. It's not because they're any more virtuous or greedy than an equivalent member of a Polynesian society. It's much more because the cost-benefit rational analysis favors getting the hell out of the lower class - where you're essentially punished by the system - and up into the middle class - where the system starts speaking your language.

    In the developing nations I've outlined above, people aren't any lazier. But the situation is such that you could still live a bearable existence without the drudgery of a regular job, so the societal pressure of doing that are less and therefore fewer people see the need to.

    This also fed into my analysis of why Filipino women actively seek non-Filipino men for husbands, as Lancer demonstrated. It's not because Filipino men are morally worse than Americans. It's more because Americans culturally place a lot more importance on joining the workforce... and not because they're more virtuous. It's because their society craps on poor people, so for them, the only rational choice is to put in the work in a grinding job and make enough to support them (and a family).

  6. #26
    Monarch Wezil's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fake London
    Posts
    1,833
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Good post AC. I'll follow it with my standard crap post.


    I'd ask Lancer to send me a couple Filipino's but zkribbler has probably been whispering in his ear about me.
    I don't play Civ - Civ2 Veteran (Ret.)

  7. #27
    Warlord Ozbenno's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    173
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    I have three kids and wouldn't swap the experience for anything (well obviuosly or I'd only have 1 I suppose)!

    Sure there are ups and downs but the ups are always better than the downs. Dale is right, when I get mugged by them all when I get home, it can't be a bad day.

  8. #28
    女士
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,207
    Downloads
    3
    Uploads
    1

    Default

    Bah, it's only because you three are Australians and thus always have a sunny optimistic outlook. :P

  9. #29
    Prince
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    ( o Y o )
    Posts
    604
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Heh, I used to think like you, AC, but now I'm actually starting to change my mind.

    Maybe its because I found someone with which I'm convinced I want to live the rest of m ylife, or because I'm growing up, but having kids has definitely gone from not planned at all to something to think about.

    It'll probably still be a couple of years before we do (I still need to graduate, for starters) but it's a definite possibility.

  10. #30
    女士
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,207
    Downloads
    3
    Uploads
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by N35t0r View Post
    Maybe its because I found someone with which I'm convinced I want to live the rest of my life
    Yes, this can make all the difference, I agree. My problem is that, after dozens of boyfriends and a few girlfriends here and there, I have not found anybody that's that important to me. I suppose I value my freedom and my ability to change life directions quickly. Especially now that I'm applying for government jobs that often mean relocation at short notice.

    It's not that I lack the capacity to put others' interests at the same level as my own (or even ahead of my own). The problem is that I'm all tapped out. I have a very strong bond with my brother and many people have said I treat him like he's my kid. I also have a strong sense of duty to my parents and I'm putting away money now to help contribute to their retirement.

    So that's already three people that I consider to claim a duty on my life. I willingly assume this duty to them because they deserve it. But three is enough - especially because they are already known quantities and my love for them is very real and apparent.

    I'm not going to gamble on future unknown quantities of descendants, especially when it's not at all certain that I'll get along with them.

  11. #31
    Prince
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    ( o Y o )
    Posts
    604
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alinestra Covelia View Post
    Yes, this can make all the difference, I agree. My problem is that, after dozens of boyfriends and a few girlfriends here and there, I have not found anybody that's that important to me. I suppose I value my freedom and my ability to change life directions quickly. Especially now that I'm applying for government jobs that often mean relocation at short notice.
    I wouldn't discard meeting someone your really hit off with. In any case, I've found that you don't meet people like this when you're looking for someone. Maybe we don't really know what we want. I can't exactly say that my case is typical though, since I was pretty much depressed before I met her (and let me tell you that the mere chance of losing her had much more effect than the antidepressants ever did), but the difference between this relationship and my previous ones is abysmal. Its not that I didn't love any of my exes, on the contrary, since I've always been pretty much serious when dating, but this time it's just another level altogether.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alinestra Covelia View Post
    It's not that I lack the capacity to put others' interests at the same level as my own (or even ahead of my own). The problem is that I'm all tapped out. I have a very strong bond with my brother and many people have said I treat him like he's my kid. I also have a strong sense of duty to my parents and I'm putting away money now to help contribute to their retirement.

    So that's already three people that I consider to claim a duty on my life. I willingly assume this duty to them because they deserve it. But three is enough - especially because they are already known quantities and my love for them is very real and apparent.

    I'm not going to gamble on future unknown quantities of descendants, especially when it's not at all certain that I'll get along with them.
    The thing is, you shouldn't (won't?) be thinking of it as a gamble. I can't really say what it'll be, though, since I'm still several years away anyway. Maybe Dale can help with this?

    In any case, I'm thinking that people who initially don't want to have children and then change their minds have a good chance of being good parents, since they probably gave this some good thought beforehand.

  12. #32
    Revolutionary Dale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    BRR Games
    Posts
    11,531
    Blog Entries
    11
    Downloads
    43
    Uploads
    13

    Default

    Don't think of kids as a gamble. They aren't. Kids will reward you directly relational to the amount put in. If you invest time in your kids, you will receive the greatest rewards ever. That's why my weekends are basically totally for my kids. I can't spend time during the week, but what days I have are for them.
    http://www.brrgames.com

    WPC Minecraft Server - 71.19.242.210
    Checkout our Minecraft Map!

  13. #33

    Default

    I have to disagree with AC about the economics of being poor and work ethic comparison.

    In the US if you're poor you have social programs to fall back on, and can live a pretty good life compared to even the working class in 3rd world countries. Only those who don't know about the options available to them, or have a condition which prevents them from seeking help (mental or drugs) "go without".

    Here in the Philippines, you "go without" if you don't have land/money. Even those with land often go without. Working class here in Bohol earn about P120/day (about $2.50 a day), work as hard as anyone, and can barely afford rice for their families who live in bamboo/grass huts. Healthcare is affordable, sometimes even free, as long as you don't need medicine. Medicines are just as expensive as in the US, and so even the working class and those with relatives who are sending remittances from overseas have trouble paying for them. Given living conditions, climate, cost of a healthy diet, and the state of infrastructure in most of the country, it's much harder to stay healthy here than in the US without money.

    As for the perception that the girls only want foreigners, almost all the workers I've hired have a wife and kids they are working for. Yes, there are gold-diggers here that only care about money, but no more-so than anywhere else in the world. the only real difference in that regard is a foreigner without much money (for their country) may be seen as "rich" by said gold-diggers.

    As for work ethic, I had to tell about 15 guys this week that there's not enough work available for them. The work is hard, 9 hours a day, for P200 (a bit more for skilled workers)... and then they go "home" to work taking care of their stock animals, foraging for food, and/or taking care of their family land. Just being "poor" is a job here in and of itself, so long as you want to stay alive.

    Which is probably why so many Filipinos are willing to pay an agency to get a job to go work overseas, away from their families (family being the most important thing in this culture)... often in miserable working conditions where they are abused and mistreated (common in asian and middle-east jobs).

    I've known plenty of lazy Americans (with or without jobs...), and am one of them myself (at least at times). I haven't met any lazy Filapinos yet, at least in a rural setting like this, you just can't live and be lazy over here.

  14. #34

    Default

    I feel an urge to go on a my usual anti-capitalistic rant about the forceful expansion of the market-economy into areas that where usually domininated by sustenance-economies and such, but this thread is supposed to be about kids, right?

    So, i just say, being an uncle is just perfect for me. A couple of ours is fun, and rewarding in itself, as i love to teach and show the kids stuff, but i dont even have to change diapers. At the most, i pick them up from Kindergarten and walk them home.

    I find being with kids really self-reflective - and that´s the amazing part of it. It makes you remember how it was being a kid. What you would have enjoyed, or did enjoy, and what you didnt - and then you try to act accordingly to the kids.

    For example, i had an uncle, who tried to teach me stuff, that were not really suitable for my age yet. Then my parents would tell him: ´He doesnt get that yet´. Yet i did (i was a smart kid - smarter than today in many regards, i actually think). He tought me about the geometry of the circle before i even went to school (i think, maybe i was in 1st or 2nd grade, really) - you know, about pi and all that. And i totally got it. And it amazed me.

    I got good parents, and i am really thankful, for what they did (and do) for me, but i do think, that they were a bit afraid of me exceeding them. My dad stoping playing chess with me, when i started to win on a regular basis. But he didnt point me to a chess-school/club or anything either. He just stopped playing me and didnt even admit, he did so, because he was loosing and that i needed a better challange than him.

    As an uncle, you dont really have that. On the contrary, if your nephew can outsmart your brother (his father), by things you taught him, it can turn, in all honesty, into a silent little triumph of yours.

    As a parent you can grow so tired of your kids, that you just want to occupy them with something else than yourself. That´s why, i think, crappy plastic toys are bought in such quantities. Even parents, who formely frowned on them, usually get some of them after a couple of months in. As an uncle, i put these toys aside immediatly. Plasitc dolls (´playmobil´ - i dont know, if there are international) and ´lego´ are fine, but ´press the button and hear a sound´ - not with me. I waste my time with that, dont condition my nephew to do the same. Instead, we go ´traveling´ for example - adventure trips around the ´carpet sea´ with an expedition of humans and animals and cars (all can talk if needed). It´s so cute, when he sometimes just sits there staring somewhere, with his mouth open, as he imagines the landscape of a certain biome i am describing. I drop in things like that only the tip of an ice-mountain is surfaced and such.

    Unfortunately, there is one thing about boys, once they are, maybe, 5 years old: They get on the ´strong-trip´. Eventually, they start asking ´Who is stronger? Which one is better? What is faster, bigger, more powerful?´ And no matter how many times you tell them (and it can be several in just a couple of minutes), that one is good for one thing, and the other for another, and that they are most strong/powerful/etc. when they work together, or that it depends on the situation - they will keep asking these questions. it really bugs me. And i wonder, is this ´genetic´, or is it the product of our society? My 4.5 year old nephew, last time he visited, even used a stronger form: He kept asking (and playing through - homocide included) who could kill whom. The killer was the cool one, the victim the looser - that really got me concerned. And i was not able to get the source for it. When i asked him, where he got that ´killing stuff´ from, he responded ´From spongebob´ - can that be?! Could he innocently and unconciously be expressing the source of sublime manipulation? Or was is just a random answer?

    EDIT: If i had a boy myself, i´d definetaly call him Calvin - guess what i´d call the second...
    Last edited by Mr. Scruffy; 26-09-09 at 12:55.

  15. #35
    女士
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,207
    Downloads
    3
    Uploads
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    I have to disagree with AC about the economics of being poor and work ethic comparison.

    In the US if you're poor you have social programs to fall back on, and can live a pretty good life compared to even the working class in 3rd world countries. Only those who don't know about the options available to them, or have a condition which prevents them from seeking help (mental or drugs) "go without".
    I think your post is strongest when it's talking about my misperceptions of the Filipino situation. Specifically, I disagree with the quoted material above. In my journalistic reporting and my pro bono work as a legal adviser through law school, I have found the social programs of the US to be seriously lacking in ways that were not the case in Britain or Canada and which even socialist countries like China don't display.

    However, I defer to all your points about the Filipino side of things.

    Furthermore, the suggestion of Filipina women searching for white men to marry does not come from me. It came from Lancer and Zkribbler, commenting neutrally on an observation they made. I did not originate the observation - I merely searched for explanations.

  16. #36
    Administrator and Modboss Metaliturtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    WPC Miscellaneous Mod
    Posts
    5,719
    Downloads
    3
    Uploads
    2

    Default

    Mr. Scruffy is the cool uncle!

    As far as the 'who is stronger/who can kill who' type stuff the youngsters are getting into, it might make sense to teach them how to play chess, and when they have a good grasp of it, play a game where their back row is 7 queens and 1 king, while your pieces are all normal. Then whoop 'em. That will show them that it's not always the strongest, but who is smartest that wins. Also you'll show them how working together is better than having 7 Rambo pieces.

    As far as kids? My wife and I might get one o them soon. We'll probably start trying as she gets closer to finishing school.
    Behold the revolution

  17. #37

    Default

    At a restaurant visit with two 6-7 years olds (one being my oldest nephew), the kids got bored while waiting for the food. I started them on building houses of cards with the beer taps (by just starting it myself, acting bored). Soon each of us ran out of cards. The kids started fighting over them (getting too loud for the restaurant). Then i was like: ´I have a cool idea! Let´s chip in together and build a house of cards higher than any house of cards has ever been built here together´... The kids were all dissappointed, when the meals finally arrived and we had to put the cards aside...

    I like to do this stuff, because adult talk usually bores me. It´s usually either small talk, or media-repition or gossip... Or stuff like insurance, job, cars and whatnot. They never talk about computer games...

  18. #38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alinestra Covelia View Post
    Specifically, I disagree with the quoted material above. In my journalistic reporting and my pro bono work as a legal adviser through law school, I have found the social programs of the US to be seriously lacking in ways that were not the case in Britain or Canada and which even socialist countries like China don't display.
    Are you saying Britain and Canada are 3rd world/undeveloped countries?

  19. #39
    女士
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,207
    Downloads
    3
    Uploads
    1

    Default

    No.

    ...

    Well, not Canada at least. Britain... ehh... YMMV...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •